Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Suicide rates and being spoken out of existence

311 replies

crunchynuts12345 · 19/04/2025 21:59

A lot of transwomen / people unfortunately won't survive this. Feeling like you're being legislated or spoken out of existence, especially when you're already part of a group at such high risk for mental health struggles and suicide, is devastating. It’s not just policy or rhetoric — it’s lived impact. Much like the way the awful section 28 law impacted gays - every time identity is debated like it’s theoretical or optional, it chips away at a person's sense of worth. It's so sad. You’re not welcome, not valid, not safe — can hit deep

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/04/2025 21:59

I’m pretty sure I’m aware of what the stats are.

spannasaurus · 21/04/2025 21:56

crunchynuts12345 · 21/04/2025 21:55

@spannasaurus @Ereshkigalangcleg I wonder if you're open to reading stats? It doesn't really sound like it, it sounds like being right is more important to you.

Can you provide a link to them please

Original poster
crunchynuts12345 · 21/04/2025 21:55

@spannasaurus @Ereshkigalangcleg I wonder if you're open to reading stats? It doesn't really sound like it, it sounds like being right is more important to you.

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/04/2025 21:55

crunchynuts12345 · 19/04/2025 22:20

@Leafstamp What narrative am I pushing, exactly? I’m not. I’m just saying — see the individual, not the movement. Same thing I’d say to a racist: don’t reduce people to a group you’ve decided to fear or hate. Start with basic humanity

Is that what you advise your trans clients about women who campaign for women’s rights?

myplace · 21/04/2025 21:52

crunchynuts12345 · 21/04/2025 21:46

@MrsOvertonsWindow with respect, you’ve completely misunderstood both the post and the role of a therapist.
Discussing the mental health impacts of exclusion, stigma, and systemic hostility particularly on a group already at higher risk of suicide is not "alarmist." It’s an evidence-based concern and one that any responsible therapist should be paying close attention to.
Nobody here is trying to silence women or erase anyone’s rights. But pointing out the real-world consequences of a narrative doesn’t make it coercive it makes it accountable.
You’re right that everyone needs to take responsibility for their own decisions. But that includes recognising when your speech or activism contributes to harm, whether that was your intent or not.
If you can’t even acknowledge that trans people are at a much higher risk of dying from suicide because it's inconvenient then there's a disowning of truth which is quite disturbing.

Edited

More DARVO.
The real world consequences of your preferred outcome are women no longer having single sex exclusions for a proportionate purpose- so men in women’s prisons, men strip searching women and women officers being forced to strip search men, women unable to access toilets and rape crisis services, same sex intimate carers.

Real world consequences that have already been happening and that we are trying to prevent continuing.

But I forget, that isn’t your interest. You only care about ’special identity’ people.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/04/2025 21:52

Let’s see the stats then @crunchynuts12345

BundleBoogie · 21/04/2025 21:51

crunchynuts12345 · 21/04/2025 21:40

@Serencwtch Just like Section 28, the law massively lags behind lived experience. And just like then, the justification is “protecting children.” Section 28 claimed it was about shielding young people, but all it really did was silence and isolate queer kids.
How many children were actually protected by being forbidden to even hear the word “gay” in school? And now, decades later, we’re watching the same narrative recycled only this time it’s trans women being cast as the threat.
So here’s the real question: How many children have been protected by the idea that trans women are dangerous in public toilets? And how many have been harmed by the fear, shame, and stigma those claims create?
Fear has never been a good foundation for safeguarding. But it’s always been a very effective tool for spreading hate and division

@NineLivesKatSo in your view, therapy should be more directive? Less about listening to someone’s lived experience, and more about telling them to "toughen up" and get on with it? That's not really how therapy works.

Well if ‘Katie’ Dolotowski hadn’t been allowed into the ladies toilets by his social worker (required to escort him for bail conditions from a previous sex offence) there’s one little girl who wouldn’t have been pushed into a cubicle and had her trousers pulled down by him, been threatened with a knife and for her mother to be killed if she said anything.

That entirely preventable sexual assault is a direct result of a ‘trans inclusive’ policy. Do you care about that little girl at all? A teeny bit? What about when she wants a female only therapy session?

Will you call her out as being a bigot akin to a racist??

She would now be protected (well if the social workers/councils can be persuaded to update their policies obviously) by the SC ruling. Surely that’s a good thing?

spannasaurus · 21/04/2025 21:51

If you can’t even acknowledge that trans people are at a much higher risk of dying from suicide because it's inconvenient then there's a disowning of truth which is quite disturbing

They're not though.

Original poster
crunchynuts12345 · 21/04/2025 21:46

@MrsOvertonsWindow with respect, you’ve completely misunderstood both the post and the role of a therapist.
Discussing the mental health impacts of exclusion, stigma, and systemic hostility particularly on a group already at higher risk of suicide is not "alarmist." It’s an evidence-based concern and one that any responsible therapist should be paying close attention to.
Nobody here is trying to silence women or erase anyone’s rights. But pointing out the real-world consequences of a narrative doesn’t make it coercive it makes it accountable.
You’re right that everyone needs to take responsibility for their own decisions. But that includes recognising when your speech or activism contributes to harm, whether that was your intent or not.
If you can’t even acknowledge that trans people are at a much higher risk of dying from suicide because it's inconvenient then there's a disowning of truth which is quite disturbing.

OP posts:
NineLivesKat · 21/04/2025 21:43

crunchynuts12345 · 21/04/2025 21:40

@Serencwtch Just like Section 28, the law massively lags behind lived experience. And just like then, the justification is “protecting children.” Section 28 claimed it was about shielding young people, but all it really did was silence and isolate queer kids.
How many children were actually protected by being forbidden to even hear the word “gay” in school? And now, decades later, we’re watching the same narrative recycled only this time it’s trans women being cast as the threat.
So here’s the real question: How many children have been protected by the idea that trans women are dangerous in public toilets? And how many have been harmed by the fear, shame, and stigma those claims create?
Fear has never been a good foundation for safeguarding. But it’s always been a very effective tool for spreading hate and division

@NineLivesKatSo in your view, therapy should be more directive? Less about listening to someone’s lived experience, and more about telling them to "toughen up" and get on with it? That's not really how therapy works.

That’s not what I said. Part of therapy is surely helping people come to terms with things they wish could be different, whether that’s a different childhood or family or whatever.

Original poster
crunchynuts12345 · 21/04/2025 21:40

@Serencwtch Just like Section 28, the law massively lags behind lived experience. And just like then, the justification is “protecting children.” Section 28 claimed it was about shielding young people, but all it really did was silence and isolate queer kids.
How many children were actually protected by being forbidden to even hear the word “gay” in school? And now, decades later, we’re watching the same narrative recycled only this time it’s trans women being cast as the threat.
So here’s the real question: How many children have been protected by the idea that trans women are dangerous in public toilets? And how many have been harmed by the fear, shame, and stigma those claims create?
Fear has never been a good foundation for safeguarding. But it’s always been a very effective tool for spreading hate and division

@NineLivesKatSo in your view, therapy should be more directive? Less about listening to someone’s lived experience, and more about telling them to "toughen up" and get on with it? That's not really how therapy works.

OP posts:
BundleBoogie · 21/04/2025 21:34

mswales · 19/04/2025 22:43

Reading all the threads on this ruling shows that some of the women celebrating this ruling are indeed bigots like racists. I am a biological woman, spent several years working in domestic abuse refuges and on a Rape Crisis helpline, have been sexually assaulted by men many times like most women (including transwomen) and am devastated by this ruling. It does not make me feel safer, it does the opposite. I would rather me and my daughter share a bathroom with transwomen than the "shut up you men having a mantrum" type women on these threads any day of the week. Transwomen and men reading this thread, please know that so many women stand with you, including on mumsnet. And sending love to you too OP.

Edited
Show quote history

I’m sure the women you ‘supported’ in rape crisis/refuges felt really comforted by the fact that you regarded their requirements for female only support groups as akin to ‘racists’.

Did you ever consider you might have been in the wrong job? Will you ever find out how many raped women self excluded from essential support because of your mindblowingly anti women attitude?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/04/2025 21:30

Just “I’m a woman” is fine, @mswales,there’s only the biological kind, as the Supreme Court ruled.

mswales · 21/04/2025 21:24

popefully · 21/04/2025 13:18

The hypocrisy of a pp saying "I am a biological woman" to clarify that she is female because she considers it relevant, posting to say that a law protecting equality for female people should not have been allowed to clarify that they are female because it's considered relevant to enacting that law, is quite something.

I used that term specifically for the audience on this thread. I would never ever refer to myself as a biological woman in the real world. I would say cis woman but I'm well aware of what reaction that would provoke on here!

popefully · 21/04/2025 13:18

The hypocrisy of a pp saying "I am a biological woman" to clarify that she is female because she considers it relevant, posting to say that a law protecting equality for female people should not have been allowed to clarify that they are female because it's considered relevant to enacting that law, is quite something.

Planetmonster · 21/04/2025 12:59

@crunchynuts12345 but why should we ? I don’t care about trans women’s lived experiences. The ones I have met recently don’t stop banging on about their experiences, I’d like them to sit quiet like in the corner and STFU. I have had to keep my opinion to myself for the last ten years, now it is their turn.

‘just asking that we speak to individuals about their lived experience if we get the opportunity as the trans community will be feeling like shit right now.’

why are they special? Why do we have to care? Just try to pass and use the men’s. Job done.

QualiaDahlia · 19/04/2025 22:54

Most therapists and psychologists I know are gender critical, and want to provide support for the women terrified and devastated by the numbers of women being fired for being feminists, by not being able to express themselves for fear of attack or losing their livelihoods, retraumatised by the intensity and speed of stipping back women's rights...but they can't, because, like most women who are afraid to speak, they too have children to feed and face losing their livelihoods if anyone finds out they believe gender distinctions are sexist social constructs.

Unitarily · 19/04/2025 22:54

I just watched the march today in London. I am glad they felt safe to go and represent their view. Some even brought their children.

Women haven’t felt safe to do that. I would never dream of taking my children to a march on this topic. Women and men have been attacked and physically harmed over this.

So what does say? Who really are the ones at risk and marginalised.

And yes my mental health has also taken a toll from this. I was very active in the early days. I had to step back and pass the baton. Very grateful to the women who carried it forward. 🥰

I hope trans people struggling with this verdict can get mental health support and make peace with the process. A balance will be found which supports everyone.

FlowerUser · 19/04/2025 22:53

Just show me the campaigns by trans people for safe spaces fpt them. The campaigns against discrimination because they've lost their job or been refused service in a shop or been denied healthcare or evicted for being trans.

Because what I see is a bunch of aggressive men stopping women meeting together because the men in dresses are not allowed be in those meetings. I see men threatening suicide if they're not allowed in those spaces. In my experience those who threaten suicide are manipulators who use the threat as emotional blackmail.

Women fought, campaigned and paid for single sex spaces and men claiming to be women have taken them for themselves.

When those men start campaigning for their own spaces and against discrimination for being trans, like being sacked or denied service, I will join them in their campaigning. But actually they only ever campaign to take away the things we have fought for, not to gain things they have fought for.

Brefugee · 19/04/2025 22:52

ah the hyperbole strikes again.

OP in a relationship if one partner says "don't do that, i will kill myself" it is rightly seen as abusive.

And for people who may already be teetering on the brink (without cause if it is related to the Supreme Court's statement) your ill advised post may push them over.

It is not appropriate to make posts like this and i believe the thread should not stand.

HangTheDJHangTheDJHangTheDJ · 19/04/2025 22:52

mswales · 19/04/2025 22:43

Reading all the threads on this ruling shows that some of the women celebrating this ruling are indeed bigots like racists. I am a biological woman, spent several years working in domestic abuse refuges and on a Rape Crisis helpline, have been sexually assaulted by men many times like most women (including transwomen) and am devastated by this ruling. It does not make me feel safer, it does the opposite. I would rather me and my daughter share a bathroom with transwomen than the "shut up you men having a mantrum" type women on these threads any day of the week. Transwomen and men reading this thread, please know that so many women stand with you, including on mumsnet. And sending love to you too OP.

Edited
Show quote history

I'm deeply concerned about their decision to invite trans men into the women's toilets. All it means is that I'm now silenced if I see a huge muscled bearded man in the toilets.

And it's fascinating to see how we were all supposed to kowtow to their preferences, but women worried about this all supposed to shut up about our fears.

You see all the same familiar names on these threads honking on like angry geese. Where's the anger about making other women feel scared of random men just wandering into the toilets?

Alifemadelessordinary · 19/04/2025 22:52

Try being reduced to a 'person with a cervix' whilst still having to deal with all the patriarchical shite that comes along with being an adult human female.

I literally created a whole fucking human out a teaspoon of a jelly like substance (twice) and I constantly feel like I get treated worse by society because of it.

I'll fight to the death until that is respected and my daughter can use a public toilet without some nonce hiding behind being trans can pop in to SA her. As if we don't have enough places to be scared of being a pawn for male wants and depraved fantasy.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/04/2025 22:51

BangersAndGnash · 19/04/2025 22:18

Then Trans people need support for their MH.

The SC ruling does not say trans people do not exist. It emphasises that being trans remains a protected characteristic.

If trans people are reacting by wishing to commit suicide the answer is support for their mental health.

Not denying women exist as a class.

And it might be of help to trans people if the legal protections available to them were publicised rather than the hysteria causing ‘devastation’ over the legal definition of women within the Equality Act.

All that has happened is that the definition of woman remains as it has always been. Before the Trans Activists tried to erase it.

Women have been subjected to the fear of murder, abuse, rape, attack, control, mutilation, discrimination etc for MILLENIA without collapsing in heaps of suicidal bodies.

Who knows, maybe the MH crisis is a cause rather than an effect.

Just a thought.

Edited

This.

Serencwtch · 19/04/2025 22:50

Actually what drives self harm & suicide is it being promoted like this.
Trans people are told they have to feel suicidal & feel the struggle in order to 'belong'

Have a look at actual scientific research eg by Prof Louis Appleby.

There is nothing in the SC judgement that would increase the suicide rate for any group of people.

The mental health condition with the highest rate of completed suicide is EUPD/c-PTSD. The overwhelming majority of this group are biological women who the majority of the time have been abused by biological males.