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Suicide rates and being spoken out of existence

311 replies

crunchynuts12345 · 19/04/2025 21:59

A lot of transwomen / people unfortunately won't survive this. Feeling like you're being legislated or spoken out of existence, especially when you're already part of a group at such high risk for mental health struggles and suicide, is devastating. It’s not just policy or rhetoric — it’s lived impact. Much like the way the awful section 28 law impacted gays - every time identity is debated like it’s theoretical or optional, it chips away at a person's sense of worth. It's so sad. You’re not welcome, not valid, not safe — can hit deep

OP posts:
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Snorlaxo · 25/04/2025 12:43

*but why not just have a conversation - i'm sorry you're not my type and move on?

If a woman would date a transwoman then she’d be identifying as pan sexual rather than lesbian but we are at a point where everybody is supposed to pretend that TWAW. Trans ideology says that rejecting someone based on their genitals or biological sex is transphobic.

If you’ve never been scared of telling a man something because you fear his reaction then you are very lucky and in a minority of women. Many are even scared to text and block.

SaveMeFromHumanity · 25/04/2025 12:27

but why not just have a conversation - i'm sorry you're not my type and move on?

Because according to TRAs correctly identifying someone sex is a hate crime.

And men can become very aggressive when women say no to them.

And women who have trive to have that very polite exchange have been kicked.off lesbian dating apps.

SaveMeFromHumanity · 25/04/2025 12:09

What I really don’t understand is when straight women go out of their way to hate on trans women - what did they do to you?

Well, I don't 'hate on' anyone.

I'm straight but I do have several lesbian friends. One has some sympathy with transmen but most have a problem with the whole movement for the same reason I do.

I've taken this from a post I put on another thread. It was early so it's probably not very clear but 🤷🏻‍♀️

And, as many people have said before, we've knowingly been using the loos alongside transwomen for years and most people didn't give it much thought as long as people were respectful. Its only been in the last 10 years that we've had a situation where we've had to pretend they were actually women and they have been allowed to have us kicked out of women's spaces or denied medical treatment or made criminals or sacked for recognising that they are male.

And had the language around womenhood (chestfeeding, pregnant people, cervix havers) changed. Along with the complete fetishisation of womanhood.

Alongside, the invasion of women's sports and the nonsense of people being encouraged and permitted to change their birth sex on legal documents and by the NHS which has resulted in ridiculous situations and death (TW demanding nurses perform smear tests on them despite not having a vagina or a cervix and a transman who died because she had registered as male and the hospital had treated her as such. This meant that they made the wrong diagnosis - via blood tests - and she didn't get the treatment she needed).

NHS hospitals that have changed the zebra crossings, which are black and white and easy to see for visually impaired people to rainbow striped ones, which aren't. Police dancing at Pride festivals and pretending they haven't seen male violence if it's committed by the right sort of man whilst visiting women who have used the wrong words.

People conflating LGB issues, which are about sexuality, with T+ issues which are about identify, which means that members of the LGB community have been negatively impacted by the trans demands because some people lump them all together. Or the T issues not being dealt with appropriately because, "This is just like people's attitude towards gay rights in the 80s," when it's completely different. And when the LGB Alliance was set up to prioritise the LGB without the T, the T went for them too. We've all read about the 'Cotton Ceiling' and language calling lesbians (never gay men) 'genital fetishists'. Young lesbians being coerced into having sex with transwomen with a penis for fear of being seen as 'exclusionary'.

The poor woman who was told they couldn't have been raped because she was on a women's ward and there were no men on there. When she knew she'd been raped and a year later it turned out that one of the women was a special new with a penis woman rather than be suppprted as a rape victim. Or women in courts who've had to refer to their rapist as 'she'.

Or just general basic safeguarding requirements being ignored if the person breaking them was a transwoman or if a child said they were trans. Schools that were encouraged to socially transition children and not tell their parents (for safeguarding reasons in case their parents were TERFs). Parents who only found out their daughter was now their 'son' when they received the end of year report or went to parents evening - as per the DfE guidance at the time.

The whole movement was damaging to all women. Not any one individual transwoman who just wanted to get on with their life quietly whilst wearing a dress.

And, tbh, they're just as much a victim of the 'movement' that claimed to represent them too.

Edited for formatting
.

TheKeatingFive · 25/04/2025 12:04

crunchynuts12345 · 25/04/2025 11:55

I sort of get it.
I think for a lot of lesbians, the pain of the fight has gone unprocessed (those who were around during section 28 etc) and, sadly, it’s sometimes being transferred onto trans women. ie, trans women enters lesbian space, lesbians mostly don't want to date trans women, but why not just have a conversation - i'm sorry you're not my type and move on? I'm reflecting on all of this and wondering how many people on here are lesbians. I sort of get where some of the tension comes from.

What I really don’t understand is when straight women go out of their way to hate on trans women - what did they do to you?

No one is 'hating on' anyone, but why should women tolerate men in their single sex spaces?

Helleofabore · 25/04/2025 12:03

crunchynuts12345 · 25/04/2025 11:55

I sort of get it.
I think for a lot of lesbians, the pain of the fight has gone unprocessed (those who were around during section 28 etc) and, sadly, it’s sometimes being transferred onto trans women. ie, trans women enters lesbian space, lesbians mostly don't want to date trans women, but why not just have a conversation - i'm sorry you're not my type and move on? I'm reflecting on all of this and wondering how many people on here are lesbians. I sort of get where some of the tension comes from.

What I really don’t understand is when straight women go out of their way to hate on trans women - what did they do to you?

Why should any lesbian tolerate any male person entering their spaces? This is homophobic.

crunchynuts12345 · 25/04/2025 11:55

I sort of get it.
I think for a lot of lesbians, the pain of the fight has gone unprocessed (those who were around during section 28 etc) and, sadly, it’s sometimes being transferred onto trans women. ie, trans women enters lesbian space, lesbians mostly don't want to date trans women, but why not just have a conversation - i'm sorry you're not my type and move on? I'm reflecting on all of this and wondering how many people on here are lesbians. I sort of get where some of the tension comes from.

What I really don’t understand is when straight women go out of their way to hate on trans women - what did they do to you?

OP posts:
BundleBoogie · 23/04/2025 17:29

Keirawr · 23/04/2025 06:50

Has anyone figured out how you speak something out of existence?

It’s almost like it wasn’t real in the first place.

Who’d have thunk it.

Good point.

So OP has unintentionally revealed that he or she understands that trans is not about material reality as no amount of speaking will ever negate the existence of something real like an apple for example.

I was thinking about it today and we still have no actual definition of ‘gender’ (other than a selection of sex stereotypes), much less gender identity. We’re never going to get one are we?

Punzel · 23/04/2025 15:55

0.14 % of Jews living in Nazi occupied territories in 1941/42 committed suicide.
If trans people have a high suicide rate, and I sincerely hope they do not, it is not because they are being “spoken out of existence”, or feel they are.

Keirawr · 23/04/2025 06:50

Has anyone figured out how you speak something out of existence?

It’s almost like it wasn’t real in the first place.

Who’d have thunk it.

SweetChilliGirl · 23/04/2025 06:13

"That would be offensive and trivialise a minority identity."

I honestly can't believe you wrote that with a straight face Or that you can claim this isn't about women's rights.

Helleofabore · 23/04/2025 06:05

Helleofabore · 22/04/2025 08:40

Are you genuinely asking?

Maybe you don’t remember when Stonewall announced they were switching from LGB and they added the T and made it the centre of their campaign. I say centre because they turned even the definitions for same sex attracted to focus on people with transgender identities.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/feb/16/stonewall-start-campaigning-trans-equality

Then stonewall used their built up and incredibly well earned reputation to ensure organisations around the UK including the government and public service also centred that group. They gave out misinterpreted policy guidance based on their desired interpretation of the laws. And even when shown in court that these interpretations were flawed, they refused to take ownership of the damage they wrought.

And so now we have schools, hospitals, prisons, sports, businesses all with policies that cause harm to women and children because they followed that advice.

It isn’t just because they were part of the worldwide strategy that forced open the very meaning of the words woman, girl, female, man, boy and male. But that has played a large part in it all. If you force through society, education, governments the new language, the rest was supposed to fall into place. If you say the additional privileges being demanded by male people with transgender identities are just like the rightful, and righteous, rights of same sex and both sex attracted people, that gets you a very long way.

It certainly didn’t start with Stonewall. But in the UK, they gave it the power boost the initial campaign groups needed. Here are some documents that show just how language was used and how this has leveraged other groups to achieve it all.

In case you want to read these documents, here they are:

You can find the Dentons report through this link .

https://gendercriticalwoman.blog/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/iglyov3-1.pdf

This is the link for the Messaging Guide : Transgender Youth and the Freedom to Be Ourselves
From December 2021 (sorry about the messy link)

static1.squarespace.com/static/5fd0f29d0d626c5fb471be74/t/61b13d00236e2f7f2dbb9a36/1639005441624/Transgender+Youth+and+the+Freedom+to+Be+Ourselves.pdf

The Transgender Law Center’s work.

This link also shows a 'playbook' on how to leverage other social justice issues to manipulate people into supporting beliefs not upheld with any factual or scientific evidence at all. In fact, in this link above, the general population are called 'persuadables'. They are not hiding that this is pure emotional manipulation.

And finally, here is something similar from the UK Greens. Just in case people still doubt that there is an emotionally manipulative tactic being used across the world. This one gives people stock answers that they believe will work to either shame people into agreeing with them or that they feel will be 'convincing'.

https://lgbtiqa.greenparty.org.uk/2023/06/15/dogwhistle-guidance/

it is in archive sites if you want to track it down.

Edited

Sorry @Firefly1987 . This was for you. With the current issue MNHQ is having (the ‘there has been an unexpected error’) you post got detached from the quote.

ImConfusedDotComHelp · 22/04/2025 14:59

spannasaurus · 19/04/2025 22:07

Exactly.

@crunchynuts12345 YABVVVVVVU

trans people do exist. It's just that biological sex matters.

So much time snd energy is spent on a very tiny group who seem to always be unhappy with themselves.

Brefugee · 22/04/2025 14:01

It is disappointing this thread was allowed to stand.
We know that threats of suicide, or mention of suicide can be regarded as abusive and coercive in many cases.

I am deeply sympathetic to anyone whose personal life is giving them dark thoughts along the lines of ending it. Loss of job, status, and bullying can also lead to thoughts like that.

Helleofabore · 22/04/2025 13:09

Indeed.

KidneyRock · 22/04/2025 13:01

Helleofabore · 22/04/2025 12:59

So, still nothing?

I think it is so irresponsible that a therapist would talk of suicide as if suicide ideation figures = suicides.

It’s a huge problem that almost anyone can set themselves up as a ‘therapist’ these days. Makes me worry about vulnerable people being exploited.

Helleofabore · 22/04/2025 12:59

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/04/2025 11:52

The pp doesn’t seem to have the actual suicide statistics that they are basing their claim on.

So, still nothing?

I think it is so irresponsible that a therapist would talk of suicide as if suicide ideation figures = suicides.

Helleofabore · 22/04/2025 12:57

SaveMeFromHumanity · 22/04/2025 12:38

My understanding is that suicidal ideation remains constant following transition too. So not the panacea that it's claimed it is.

In many cases, it is highly troubled people looking for an/any explanation.

It most certainly does show that severe mental health continues or reestablishes after treatment. It has been well written about. Because those who experienced treatment euphoria initially then start to become aware that the treatment has not made them feel better at all for many reasons, too often they feel worse than previously.

There is little evidence (haven't checked for a while) that has shown that the long time mental health of those undergoing hormone or surgical treatment is improved.

There was one from a team from Yale and Sweden, Branstrom and Pachankis

There is this study that had to be corrected because they drew a conclusion that the data did not evidence.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31581798/

Reduction in Mental Health Treatment Utilization Among Transgender Individuals After Gender-Affirming Surgeries: A Total Population Study
Branstrom & Pachankis (Aug 2020)

Pachankis is a professor from Yale, and was caught out drawing conclusions where the evidence was so weak they had to retract.

Reduction in Mental Health Treatment Utilization Among Transgender Individuals After Gender-Affirming Surgeries: A Total Population Study - PubMed

In this first total population study of transgender individuals with a gender incongruence diagnosis, the longitudinal association between gender-affirming surgery and reduced likelihood of mental health treatment lends support to the decision to provi...

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31581798/

Whatafustercluck · 22/04/2025 12:49

Fimofriend · 22/04/2025 11:51

But is doesn't say that their suicide rates are higher than for others. Like for instance for women who have been abused.

Or women who have undiagnosed neurodivergence....

SaveMeFromHumanity · 22/04/2025 12:38

Fimofriend · 22/04/2025 11:51

But is doesn't say that their suicide rates are higher than for others. Like for instance for women who have been abused.

My understanding is that suicidal ideation remains constant following transition too. So not the panacea that it's claimed it is.

In many cases, it is highly troubled people looking for an/any explanation.

wrongthinker · 22/04/2025 12:34

MoistVonL · 21/04/2025 23:10

You're spouting utter nonsense, OP. The supposed suicidal ideation stats have been thoroughly debinked and are a ridiculous scare tactic that is both manipulative and irresponsible. "Better a live daughter than a dead son" and the other foul bollocks pedalled by Mermaids etc to terrify worried parents and vulnerable young people are not accepted anymore.

Have probably never spoken to a trans person - are you having a laugh? Many of us have trans-identifying people in our families, communities and workplaces. "Don't know", my arse.

"How is this affecting you?"
For the love of god, this affects every single woman living in the U.K. How can it not affect us? What it would be "taking from" us is the right to single sex spaces, women only hospital wards, refuges, prisons. The right of lesbians to have groups and organisations of their own, excluding males. The rights of some religious to be in male-free environments. The rights of people needing medical care to receive that from a person of their sex. The right to enjoy contact sport without the physical risk male people present. The right to compete fairly without facing an opponent who's been through male puberty.

The right to keep rapists like Karen W out of women's prisons and sex offenders like Katie D out of women's hostels.

The right to the words to describe ourselves as women, mothers, breastfeeding women and not cis, not gestating parents, not chest feeders.

How dare you negate the lives and experiences of 50% of the population?

Well said!

SinnerBoy · 22/04/2025 12:16

Ereshkigalangcleg · Today 11:52

The pp doesn’t seem to have the actual suicide statistics that they are basing their claim on.

I know, right? It's a complete mystery to me, as to why these types, with their boundless knowledge and constant references to statistics never seem to post any, apart from ones which disagree with them, or say something unrelated.

SinnerBoy · 22/04/2025 12:14

Sabire9 · Today 10:34

I'm not reading the other responses because I know many of them will be cruel.

So, you've read on Blue Sky and Reddit that MN is a transphobic hate site and that all the witches want to march transw off to death camps. Rather than read through the posts and form a reasoned opinion of your own, you decided to plop an anguished piece of purple prose.

OK.

AppleandRhubarbTart · 22/04/2025 12:04

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/04/2025 11:52

The pp doesn’t seem to have the actual suicide statistics that they are basing their claim on.

People like that never do.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 22/04/2025 11:52

The pp doesn’t seem to have the actual suicide statistics that they are basing their claim on.

Fimofriend · 22/04/2025 11:51

crunchynuts12345 · 21/04/2025 22:03

From the book 'Relationally Queer' Edited by Dominic Davies and Silva Neves

But is doesn't say that their suicide rates are higher than for others. Like for instance for women who have been abused.