To tell you how schools changed within 15-10 years

I have memories of primary classes of 37-it doesn't mean that things haven't got worse. We didn't have any children who couldn't cope in a mainstream school though as there were plenty of special school places.

Remember the PISA poll said that our kids were among the unhappiest in the OECD. Not just kids with SEND.

I've been at my school for longer than 15 years so I can compare like with like. It was a crumbling shithole back then and it still is now because the new school building we were supposed to get was cancelled by the Tories. There have been massive restructuring changes staff-wise to save money, we've become part of a MAT which has good points and bad points tbh. Definitely far fewer teaching assistants in lessons and generally only if there is a child with an EHCP funding them, however the TA will change on a regular basis, or just randomly not turn up to your lesson. But teaching staff, omg it's awful. We are pretty much never fully staffed in maths anymore, and constantly having to set cover work for a random selection of supply teachers (and the time spent fielding the entirely reasonable parental complaints about this....) but it seems to be even worse in other subjects. The kids are regularly having cover lessons, teachers quitting, or extended absence, even in exam years. They say to me 'Miss, you are never off, are you?' Because me being there as a consistent presence to teach them is unusual. Cover lessons are seen as an excuse for kids to dick around and do nothing so the fact that they have so many of them affects their behaviour in proper lessons.

This has got much, much worse in recent years, particularly since covid. And I hear from colleagues that it's even worse in other schools.

I think schools have deteriorated. Whilst I agree that students are listened to more they are listened to in many situations too much - they are pupils they don’t know why things need to happen, they don’t know all the reasons why teachers do what they do. Agreed students with additional needs are more supported but in main stream education which can be to the detriment of the majority of children in classes. There is too much focus upon the minority and the quiet and compliant students get lost.

This. I'm always surprised when people say schools have got worse... My memories if secondary school in the late 90's were of several of my classes having 37-40 kids in them, no TA's whatsoever at secondary

But you are comparing apples with oranges because this was before they closed loads of special schools and put those kids in mainstream.

In the 90s you also had kids legally allowed to leave school and get a job the Easter of Y11!

This. I'm always surprised when people say schools have got worse... My memories if secondary school in the late 90's were of several of my classes having 37-40 kids in them, no TA's whatsoever at secondary, TA's/ LSA's just weren't a thing. Yes we had a fair amount of supply and at my bog standard large secondary there was some pretty crap behaviour with minor drugs dealt behind the bike sheds, smoking in the far corners of the playing field, plenty of teens telling teachers to fuck off and just walking out of the classroom.

Despite all this, hwk was marked and you got a proper grade back that gave you a sense of whether you were doing well or not (whereas schools now do everything they can to obfuscate things so that its near impossible for parents to work out how their child is doing in relation to peers!).

I've got kids at secondary now and the picture doesn't seem any worse than my school experience - the main observation is that there are some kids with incredibly high needs who quite obviously should be in a different environment, but are nonetheless in a regular school albeit with 1:1 support.

I haven't read the full thread but SEND and high ability aren't mutually exclusive categories.

I'd like to hear other views on this.

I'm not a teacher but had this conversation with a teacher friend - who noted -

The most academically able students just drift towards the middle as there is a lack of capacity to push them. This is due to increased class sizes, more discipline issues, and also higher numbers of children with additional needs in the class.

This is partially due to an increased number of children with SEND who historically would have been in specialist provision schools, who are now in mainstream. That is no fault of the child, it is due to a massive decline in capacity at specialist provision schools.

So her take is that it may not be easily visible in aggregate data - but the performance of children with high potential is lowered towards the middle. And the middle is falling due to watering down of subjects.

When I heard this I realised just how long term the issues we face as a society will be.

Children don't vote... So since Blair education has seen massive cuts in real terms.

I can resonate so much with this. I started properly in 2007 and it was wonderful. Not without fault but I never saw the day I would leave altogether. That happened 2 years ago and I haven’t looked back

And still - 80% of this discussion focused on SEND! What about your average non-SEN kids? I genuinely want to know if these schools are good places for those kids.

Worth noting our PISA scores dropped since 2018, however other countries dropped more which is why we increased our rankings.

As a pp mentioned, they don't test the kids who don't attend school and it is worth noting that our kids rank as some of the unhappiest in the OECD.

Academisation has sucked so much money out of schools. There are now so many CEOs, CFOs, directors of this and that, all on six figure salaries where once you’d have two or three people in each local authority doing those kinds of roles.
Many people are overpromoted before they have really acquired any wisdom because of shortages that lead to people running departments when they are barely out of ECT years.
So many lessons are death by PowerPoint and anyone can click a PowerPoint so that doesn’t help the argument we should be paid as other professionals. The pay sucks and won’t improve

The SEND kids and those who can't attend school won't be the ones selected to take the tests. To be honest, what's the point in doing "well" in international rankings if it doesn't translate into a successful economy and society? Do they take into account all the kids who get left behind in the system?

And yet English schools rank very highly in international league tables. Our reading levels and science/maths attainment are some of the best in the world.

Genuinely interested to know how that can be

Also, a shortage of teaching staff means schools create environments that are strict and unhelpful to most students. Our local school does 100 minute lessons because it minimises the time students are moving around the school, which is easier for the school to manage, despite the fact that evidence shows children learn better in shorter chunks. Children aren't allowed to go to the toilet in case the odd one misbehaves and there are no staff to supervise corridors etc during lesson time.

There are way more kids with SEND in mainstream schools than there were even a few years ago.

In fact there are just way more kids with SEND.

I'm a primary teacher but my DC are in secondary school. The worst thing has been the huge cuts in support staff since a rather dubious report came out under the coalition/Tory government which claimed that having TAs makes barely any difference to children's learning. Academy chains and local authorities leapt on this as a chance to save money. Now we have higher than ever levels of SEND in schools and less support than ever. TAs were also invaluable for pastoral support. Teachers don't always have the opportunity when responsible for 30+ children to take a bit of time with the anxious child who needs a but of reassurance, or the child with ADHD who needs a 5 minute run around.

My own autistic DC has ended up barely able to attend her secondary school due to severe anxiety, which could probably have been managed in the early stages if there were sufficient pastoral staff to support children like her.

Maybe I am misremembering but we used to punish kids for what we now see as learning difficulties (ADD etc). We may not be doing a good job, but we are not putting them in detention or suspending / excluding them.

I left teaching three years ago.

there’s less money. Fewer trips, larger class sizes, fewer TAs. Schools will always vary but the system as whole isn’t doing better.

yes more awareness of Sen and mental health issues but schools are employing their own mental health counsellors because Camhs has basically collapsed.

I don’t remember any TAs at secondary school either. The ones I remember from primary school worked with individual children with quite significant learning needs rather than the class as a whole.

I have genuinely been wondering what has changed in schools to cause the attendance crisis. I don’t remember much in the way of SEN provision, mental health support etc being available 20 years ago…but maybe I just didn’t see it? Classes were quite big then and I think my primary school had less TAs than my child’s school has now.

There were almost 40 kids in my Y6 class 25 years ago. Goodness knows if there were any TAs, I don't remember any at secondary school at all. Quite a lot of bullying and sexual assault at secondary; some teachers clearly doing the bare minimum. These were well-regarded schools with very strong academic performance.

I can't think of anyone who would want to do a TA's job now. They're required to do much more than helping out in a classroom and their pay and conditions are shit. The two tier treatment of staff in our schools needs to change.

As for what's changed? Parents. Parents raising entitled kids.

I think that a lot of it depends on what the school you were first working in was like. I was an NQT in 2003/2004 in a school that was awful. It was a shabby, run down comprehensive on a council estate with a lot of social problems that were prevalent at the time. No, we weren’t battling the smartphone and internet crisis, it was the teen pregnancy crisis, the NEET crisis, the bullying crisis. It was pretty bad. I’m sure if you did your initial few years in a more affluent or even mixed area you’d have a different opinion.

Sadly most of what the OP writes does not surprise me.

Lord Gove will not be reading it, nor the even worse Secretaries of State that followed him.

It would be hugely helpful if parents supported schools when they try to challenge poor behaviour. Also it would be good if people would support teachers rather than creating a situation where teachers are constantly put down & accused of moaning. The last lot of strikes was all about lack of funding in education but the general public just thought teachers were having a moan & got fed of schools being closed. Also teach kids to be polite & respectful.

I think it’s a mix of modest salary (for the hours involved), constant pressure & stress of OFSTED. I don’t think parents can help with that.