CIS

this is true.

There is absolutely no fucking need to demote women and girls to being a 'subset' of the word used to describe their sex categories. ie. woman and girl.

It really defies logic that people think that this is acceptable within society.

But here we are.

If we refer to 'transwomen' in factually accurate terms as men, there's no need for a prefix like 'cis' 🤷‍♀️

These people applying the term ‘cis women’ to all actual women (apart from transmen and ‘nonbinaries’, presumably) or telling us all we’re ‘cisgender’ and to get over it … it’s just so fucking arrogant and dismissive and frankly ignorant.

‘Gender’ is indeed cultural. It refers to various stereotypical norms and roles, restrictive boxes women are shoved into. Norms about ‘feminine’ appearance. Norms about parenting roles, family responsibilities, subjects we’re supposed to be interested in or not. Things women are discouraged or even barred from doing.

My job, and my daughters even moreso are in areas (idiotically) viewed as ‘masculine’, in which women are underrepresented for no reason relating to innate ability - no physical strength required. How then can you glibly call us ‘cis’? No. We’re just women, with our own individual characters. You can take your gender boxes and FOTTFSOF with them.

Some racist white people would quite happily call a black person the 'n' word. The general consensus is that is a horrible word to describe a black person. I could not call myself black because simply I am not, even if I fancied identifying myself in that way. 🤷 If they would like to use the 'n' word when referring to themselves then fine, crack on, but I would fully expect to get called out if I used that language and they didn't appreciate it

Cis is like having a word for people who dont collect stamps

Completely pointless

thefirebird · Today 10:42
“Being” something is quite literally a part of a person’s identity. It’s how you would describe yourself and how others would describe you. It’s quite sad to get so hung up on this. You’re a cisgender woman. Get over it.

@thefirebird should trans women get over being referred to as trans women and not “women”? Or indeed “men who identify as women”?

Why do all biological women (excluding trans men I guess) have to submit to being called cis just because a tiny minority of the male population identifies as a transgender woman? I don’t understand why our description needs to change when the term transgender woman, or indeed trans woman, exists. That should be enough.

We know that there are people out there who take medical and cosmetic steps to undergo extreme body modifications to look physically like they are a reptile or a vampire.

Can you explain why we should consider one group and treat them as if they have become something they are materially not, and not another group?

Can you apply this to age. We know that some people will take extreme steps to not look their age, do we as a society have any obligation to treat those people as if they are younger than they are?

Do we need names to categorise people who believe they are a different age compared to someone who believes that they are the age they are?

Just adding this again as maybe it is useful to keep adding it occasionally.

No male person can ever experience life as a woman. They can only ever experience life as a male person who believes they are a woman.

Even when they 'act' like a woman, they are acting as they believe a 'woman' should act. Which is fucking misogynistic!

Even if they are treated 'as a woman' by some people, they are being treated as a 'male who presents as a woman and believes they are a woman'. Because their every reaction is based on that. Not on them being female in any way.

Even when they have extreme body modifications, it is to be their own concept of what a female looks like to them. It is not what a female is.

How can it be?

The only way a person can experience life as a woman, is to have a female body, formed around the production of large gametes, even if it doesn't produce those and to navigate their life based on the decisions they and society makes that revolve around them having that body.

A male can conceptualise what it might be like to be a female, but that is all it ever is - their concept of being female.

If others could feel exactly the same as that male person, they might categorise that feeling as being a male person. Or they might categorise it as being any thing at all.

They may do it because they don't feel they fit into how they conceptualise how a male person interacts with the world (ie. their own stereotypes around being male) or they do it because they want to be seen as a female (using their own stereotypes of how a female navigates life). It really doesn't matter though. Their motivation is irrelevant to the outcome. And I consider the outcome can only be described as misogyny.

Which is that they will always be just a male who believes they are something they are objectively not.

How can the material reality be any different? This is why someone's gender is only based on someone's philosophical belief. And philosophical beliefs are fine for people to hold, but not one person in the UK has to comply with another's philosophical belief.

The logic cannot be any different than that I am afraid.

It is another logical fail, isn't it?

Just adding my tuppence: I do not "identify" as cisgender. I am a woman. This is not up for debate.

Fair enough. That’s a good example!

I suppose someone might say ‘This is Funnywonder. She’s one of three cis women in this department’ … or something. Then my blood will undoubtedly be permitted to boil. Am I allowed to correct him/her/them though?

I’m a biological woman but I don’t feel like a woman because woman isn’t a feeling. Woman is an objective being. The same way I don’t feel like a TV, computer mouse or an eye patch.

Saying 'you don't have to use the term cis about yourself but you also shouldn't object to other people using it about you' is about as logical as saying 'you don't have to use the words lardarse, dago, mulatto, spastic, four eyes, etc etc about yourself but you can't object to other people using those terms about you'.

Cis is a slur. I am not a cis woman and you should respect that by not referring to me as one.

Can I just chuck in that cis is a Latin word, not an acronym and not made up for the purposes of chemistry. Cis and trans are prepositions meaning 'on this side of' and 'across, beyond'. The Roman Empire had a province called Transalpine Gaul, meaning the bit of Gaul on the other side of the Alps (from Rome) and another one called Cisalpine Gaul, meaning the one on our side of the Alps, i.e. in the far north of what is now Italy. I suppose they come to be used with gender in the sense that a cisgender person has stayed with the gender they've always had and a transgender person has crossed to another gender. That takes us on to what gender is and I have neither time nor patience to delve into that.

You are One is saying "cis women" to mean
• the majority of female humans
• excluding the females who think they should be included into the male classification and
• excluding the males who think they should be included into the female classifucation.

So if "women" is the main group with female and male persons "cis" is a specific sub-grouping based on how an individual (not you or the State) feels about themselves based on random emotions.

So how should society / a state benchmark these feelings and emotions

Using Irish law what sex is the individual with an implanted embryo in the uterus if the individual has a Irish GRC and a male gender feeling?

Effect of gender recognition certificate generally
18. (1) Where a gender recognition certificate is issued to a person the person’s gender shall from the date of that issue become for all purposes the preferred gender so that if the preferred gender is the male gender the person’s sex becomes that of a man, and if it is the female gender the person’s sex becomes that of a woman.

Definitions
2. In this Act—
“foetus”, in relation to a pregnancy, means an embryo or a foetus during the period of time commencing after implantation in the uterus of a woman and ending on the complete emergence of the foetus from the body of the woman;
“termination of pregnancy”, in relation to a pregnant woman, means a medical procedure which is intended to end the life of a foetus;
“woman” means a female person of any age.
Offences
23. (1) It shall be an offence for a person, by any means whatsoever, to intentionally end the life of a foetus otherwise than in accordance with the provisions of this Act.
(2) It shall be an offence for a person to prescribe, administer, supply or procure any drug, substance, instrument, apparatus or other thing knowing that it is intended to be used or employed with intent to end the life of a foetus, or being reckless as to whether it is intended to be so used or employed, otherwise than in accordance with the provisions of this Act.
(3) Subsections (1) and (2) shall not apply to a pregnant woman in respect of her own pregnancy.
(4) It shall be an offence for a person to aid, abet, counsel or procure a pregnant woman to intentionally end, or attempt to end, the life of the foetus of that pregnant woman otherwise than in accordance with the provisions of this Act.
(5) A person who is guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable on conviction on indictment to a fine or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 14 years, or both.
(6) A prosecution for an offence under this section may be brought only by or with the consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions.
(7) Nothing in subsection (4) shall operate to prevent or restrict access to services lawfully carried out in a place outside the State.

I agree with you fully.

also, is the term cis man ever used?

i hear cis women a lot, but haven’t really come across any biological men having to refer to themselves as cis men?

All other things aside, I often see people say "I never use pronouns to someone's face" and with respect, it's bollocks.

Say you're introducing someone to someone else - "This is Lucy, it's her first day, she's going to be working in our office". Lucy is right there with you and hears you use she/her pronouns.

I see this argument used a lot and it's absolute nonsense.

Please be very clear how this can be a coherent and cogent definition of a group of people because no person on this earth who is not male of a age of maturity can know what being a 'man' feels.

Do you see the issue?

To exaggerate this to highlight the logic, can you tell me how it feels to be a bird?

Or can you imagine what it might feel like and you might be able to conceptualise that feeling and therefore you are categorising yourself as a bird? Or is it that you want this feeling to mean that you are a bird so you are categorising it as a bird?

How do you know that you actually don't feel like a bird, but instead you feel like a cat?

Yes these are ridiculous notions. But I am writing them to prove the point.

No person who is not an adult male could conceivably understand whether what they 'feel' is like a man or like a woman that doesn't conform to what they think a 'woman' feels or like a boy if they are male who has not matured yet.

To be honest I hate this debate, because I do think trans women should have some rights

Trans women have a whole raft of rights, all that’s changed is they don’t have the right to identify into protections designed for women.

So, the phrase is meaningless and it causes harm to those who believe that they could be 'in the wrong body'.

Those people you discuss wish to be something they objectively and materially are not. Activists used the term 'wrong body' as a way to try to solidify a philosophical belief and give it some grounding in biology. The more people use the term 'wrong body' reinforces that there is something very wrong with them. When there is not. They might be distressed at their reality, but there is no medical problem. This has been clarified by transgender academics.

I don't 'feel' like a women according to some of the sex stereotypes that I see pushed in society. But that does not make me anything but a female person who has their own personality.

You continue to discuss gender as if it is a real concept for defining people. How can you define a group of people without being able to define them?

Very well said. And gave me a little chuckle for good measure😁

Being told that I don’t have to use the word myself is irrelevant. People who get their knickers in a twist about their pronouns appear to have permission to be outraged that someone might use the wrong ones. Even though I’m struggling to think of a situation/conversation where anyone uses a person’s pronouns to their face. ‘Hey she/her, can I borrow yer pen?’ So if they are allowed to be annoyed to the point of having colleagues disciplined or friends shunned, then I reserve the right to object to people calling me a cis woman. What a fucking non term.

So you understand that the term 'cis' doesn't just mean 'biological woman' or 'female', but you feel it is pedantic to not use it. Even though using requires believing in philosophical beliefs that I would predict that the majority of the population don't believe in.

Great. use it all you like of course, no one is saying that you shouldn't use it if you believe in it. But please don't dismiss the realities of what it means and what purpose it serves.

He inspired my new username 😃