To wonder why screens aren’t investigated as a cause of childhood behaviour issues?

This is a really good point actually.

Even when I used to babysit for a little girl who liked Peppa Pig (about 15 years ago now), we would watch it as it was broadcast on Nick Jr, and then when the three episodes were over and something else was coming on, I would say, "OK, Peppa is finished now, time to switch the TV off and do something else."

Even though another kids' programme was being broadcast directly afterwards, it made for a natural place to stop. The little girl I was looking after understood that we didn't control what was on the TV, and when Peppa was finished, Peppa was finished and that was that.

My son has no concept of watching programmes as they are broadcast because we never do it. When he wants to watch Peppa Pig, whatever day or time of day it is, we search for Peppa Pig and press play. He knows instinctively that the supply of Peppa Pig episodes is effectively limitless, and that when we stop watching, it is not because Peppa is finished, but because mummy has decided it's time to stop.

So yes, I think you've hit the nail on the head there.

People used to let their children watch more than half an hour of tv on the weekends without behavioural issues, why is half an hour of Peppa Pig causing such a problem?

I wonder if it has to do with pretty much anything you want to watch being instantly available? When I was four you had to watch programmes as they were broadcast. If it was on once a week, it was once a week you watched it, there was no choice. I remember watching Doctor Who from around 4 years old, along with Saturday morning BBC kids television (I wasn't allowed to watch TisWas!), and cartoons like Tom & Jerry.

I agree OP! I notice a sharp decline in my daughter’s behaviour when she’s had more exposure to screens so she is firmly not allowed access to any iPad or phone at home. She can watch tv but limited shows and for limited time. It’s more effort to entertain them when we go out for meals and definitely not relaxing but I’d rather go through this than have a reliance on screens. We aren’t perfect and she definitely used the iPad on a flight but so many times kids just have screens shoved at them! My friends son who is two has his own iPad. They just don’t need them!

It's not "waving studies away" to say READ the studies because they don't say what you are implying.

I reckon most parents of ND kids (not saying there aren't any irresponsible ones) probably monitor their kids' screen use and have more input over it than parents of NT kids because IME, NT kids are less affected by it and while of course most children would prefer playing computer games to doing homework, it seems more difficult to break patterns with ND kids than NT so you have to be that much more consistent in the first place.

It's wildly frustrating being a parent of an ND child, putting in (at least) twice the effort for maybe half the results (some days it feels like 10x the effort for 10% of the results) and then having people on top deciding that because your parenting doesn't look like NT parenting it must be wrong and you should stick to some arbitrary rule, often even a higher standard than they would apply to any NT parent, because it might be why your DC are "wrong".

Like I said, I'm not convinced about the correlation between genuine neuro diversity and bad behaviour.

As many people have been at pains to point out, many adult women being diagnosed now were not diagnosed in their youth precisely because their behaviour was OK.

So I think in most cases there is another explanation for bad behaviour, and it seems highly likely that screen use has contributed. I even see this in my own (AFAIK) NT four year old, who gets very little screen time. Even half an hour of Peppa Pig at the weekend can be enough to cause a tantrum when it's time to stop. The effect on his behaviour really is instantaneous. So I'm not really in any doubt about the harmful effects of excessive screen use on children's developing brains.

Well there we go. Glad we agree.

Nothing to do with screen time though.

I was always very clear about saying suspected autism or that he was on the waiting list for assessment - though it got to the point where after months of 'we can't diagnose and couldn't possibly say', even the school were saying, off the record, that he very obviously was. Nobody was surprised when he was diagnosed, the focus was just on getting the diagnosis in time for him to get an appropriate school place at secondary.

On the actual assessment - DS was diagnosed in one session with the paediatrician, but the school put a lot of work into providing all the info needed before the appointment, and had applied pressure to get DS bumped up the waiting list. Everything that would perhaps usually happen after the first appointment had already been done. I've seen most of the paperwork as it was also attached to his IDP, it did not make for cheerful reading and there were reams of it - reports and information from social services, OT, CAMHS, the police, various LA services, as well as from the school and their associated services such as the engagement team etc. Then there was our information which covered pregnancy, birth and his early years.

Well, yes, this is the thing.

If I saw a child behaving like that and the parent explained that the child was ND but was clearly making a real effort to deal with the behaviour, I would be much more inclined to believe them.

But the explanation that the child is ND, whilst showing absolutely no concern about the behaviour, suggests that this is just lazy parenting.

Of course, as you say, it could be both. But given the lazy parenting, who can tell? With different parents that child might be perfectly capable of behaving himself and nobody would be labelling him ND.

But autism doesn’t necessarily mean bad behaviour anyway!? My DD has her diagnosis now and for years all she was the shy timid girl in the classroom who rarely spoke. She did not cause any bother for anyone!

unfortunately the squeakiest wheels get the school oil…

Also diagnosis won’t be given on parents report of behaviour alone anyway. The ADOS is considered the gold standard for diagnosis. And even before that you have the developmental history, the information from school and so on.

That’s lazy parenting no matter which way you look at it.

I wouldn’t tolerate that behaviour in my DC and would have moved him away.

It can still be explained by ND, but that is no excuse to allow it to continue. That’s a different argument.

Unfortunately though, this means that there are parents who don't know for sure whether their children are ND or not but assume that they are because it's a more convenient explanation for their child's behaviour than "our parenting sucks".

I mean, this feels a bit unfair if there is a 4 year wait for assessment. A neurodivergent person us neurodivergent whether they have a diagnosis or not.

Like I said upthread, there are a lot of undiagnosed neurodivergent people walking around.

I have no way of knowing who is telling the truth and who isn't, do I?

Since I know that some of the people posting on Mumsnet aren't to be taken seriously, it makes it harder to take people seriously in real life.

To give a specific example, I recently had to take my two very small children away from a children's playground because a much older boy was interfering with the play equipment. (Literally removing springs from a communal trampoline.) His mum made absolutely no attempt to stop him from doing it, didn't so much as tell him to stop, let alone physically intervene or take him away from the playground. She just looked at us and said, "he's autistic" and carried on having a chat with her friend. That's the kind of parent whose explanation I don't take seriously, I'm afraid.

How do you know they don’t have a diagnosis? Because they say “undiagnosed”?
Well there you go then you know not to listen to those particular individuals.
But for the rest of saying we have a child with autism, maybe you should listen to us?

Co-ocurring diagnoses are common though, DS is autistic, the OT assessment led to us being advised that we may want to request assessment for DCD (dyspraxia).

Well quite a few of them say as much on Mumsnet for a start!

And it will, if the parents believe the DC is ND they should explore a diagnosis.
Believe me, if they are not ND, they will not receive a diagnosis.

I mean, one issue is lumping different forms of neuro diversity in together. The same principles don't necessarily apply to autism and ADHD for example.

I have been diagnosed with ADHD (although I am somewhat sceptical about my diagnosis) and I find my own screen use problematic. I definitely find it addictive and it has a negative effect on my sleep and my cognitive functioning. I had very little access to screens until I was in my late teens, and I was in my mid twenties before I had any kind of smartphone or tablet. I think the consequences for me would have been really quite severe if I had had access to a smartphone or tablet while my brain was still developing.

With autism I think the contributing factors are likely to be different.

What makes you think that parents are just labelling their children as ND without a diagnosis?

I'm not talking about your kids though. I'm making an observation about the behaviour of kids in general.

Many of the kids who are labelled ND by their parents are not diagnosed. So how do we know they're not just naughty?

I have already acknowledged that many ND children are not in fact naughty. So I don't find "he's ND" a particularly convincing explanation for poor behaviour.

Is there a sharp increase though, or is there better diagnosis, particularly of girls? The fact that there's an increase in adult diagnosis suggests this is a factor in any apparent increase.

If there is an increase the causes are likely to be varied. I posted in a different thread about a possible link between pre-eclampsia and a raised risk of autism, and the fact that pre-eclampsia rates have increased, so that's one possible factor but there will be many more.

No, because as I have repeatedly said, I have been through the ASD and ADHD diagnosis process and it is not that easy. It is long, arduous and not every child who goes down that route receives a diagnosis.

Unless you have been through the process and have a an ND child you have absolutely no authority to comment on the matter.

I have 2 children who have been brought up with the same amount of screen time. One is ND, the other is NT.

More that some children who are just naughty are being labelled ND. Do you genuinely not think this is a possibility?

Because if it's not, then we are back to the question of what has caused this sharp increase in neuro diversity.

What point? That ND children are just naughty?