To want to be fluent in a second language?

I think you need immersion to be able to understand the language as well as speaking it.

I agree about podcasts. Easy to listen as you potter about. For more beginner learners the Coffee Break podcasts are good as you can choose the appropriate level.

I’ve learned several other languages as an adult by going to language classes and get to a reasonable level but haven’t managed to become fluent in any because I just don’t have the opportunity to use the languages often enough.

i did all of mine through actual classes (personal preference - I tried apps but didn’t take to that style of learning). For example, London-based CityLit does both in-person classes and some online. I also do things like watch TV programmes and YouTube videos in the languages to build up broader vocabulary. I find that with each language I try, I get to a point where I can understand it pretty well. Where I struggle then is not being able to speak with any degree of fluency - and this is where the lack of opportunity to practice comes in. Like you OP, I try to go to the countries I’ve learned one/twice a year, but even then, the opportunity to practice is limited to basic tourist conversation. I’d love the opportunity to go for a month and really immerse myself to build up that speaking experience, but work and financial restrictions make that impossible.

Keep up your efforts though, language is a great skill to have. And ignore the pedants here who criticise the slightest grammar errors! You should find in the real world that even when you make a mistake people still understand what you are trying to say and appreciate your effort.

I also recommend Easy Italian on YouTube. Katie became fluent in Italian by moving there & immersing herself & has a lot of useful insights & suggestions.

You will be able to have conversations if you practice having conversations.

Have a look online at sample GCSE Italian exam papers - there’s 2 levels of difficulty, foundation and higher tier, but these give you a structure to work towards across the 4 language skills listening reading speaking writing. Once you’re at comfortable higher tier level that’s decent and you’ll be at slow pace conversational level. Agree Coffee Break Italian podcasts are fantastic as well, lessons and magazine type articles, all broken down into language learning. Really paints a picture of the people, countryside, history etc. Have fun!

Im studying Japanese and am using a mix of text books, flash cards, an online course on audible and I am also doing a distance learning course with a tutor.

I like having the different options for study. Some days I use the audio course, some days I use the books and flash cards

Try Paul Noble's beginners Italian on audible. I have the Japanese version and it's really good.

I feel you need immersion. I'm bilingual, and now that I haven't spoken the second language in so long I'm not even fluent anymore. I'd pick it up easy enough if I went to the country after a fee weeks, but even speaking it randomly now I struggle

I’m thinking of Hyltenstam primarily, but the whole ultimate attainment field really…..
As you say, it is the assumption that fluent = near native level competence that is the big issue really when it comes to people’s willingness to put themselves out there and USE foreign languages. The almost ideological way in which MFL teaching has traditionally positioned grammatical accuracy as the sole measure of learner ability. It makes people believe they must assess themselves using an impossible to achieve measure!

It can be expensive, but the cheaper options are just to watch phonetics tutorials on Youtube/language learning websites (there will be lots out there for Spanish as it's such a commonly learned language), and do some of the phonetics exercises, listen and repeat.

Contacting a PHD student might also be a cheaper option; they'll charge less than a qualified professor, and they'll still have a lot of expertise.

There's still also a lot of value in just meeting up with native speakers and practising speaking, just paying a bit more attention to their accents, the rhythm of the languages, and trying to imitate as much as possible.

You are right, in French. In Spanish it would have a subjunctive:

No habría reservado un billete de vuelta si hubiera sabido que iba a conocer a toda esta gente maravillosa y a pasármelo tan bien aquí.

French uses the subjunctive less than Spanish, and Dutch doesn't have a subjunctive at all. But German does (in this case, the relevant bit would be "wenn ich gewusst hätte"). I'm guessing Italian might be like Spanish.

But this discussion kind of illustrates my point: This stuff is hard, and you aren't really "fluent" until you have absorbed things that you don't need to think about in your own language. This is much easier to do when it's around you every day, in my experience.

Thanks. I’d love to at some point but probs expensive. I’m understood and can stay with Spanish friends and be fully funcional in Spanish but a good accent would be the icing.

The accent is the hardest thing to get. It does require specialised training. All of the other areas of a language (grammar, vocabulary, idioms and general written expression) you can achieve a very high level....

For phonetics lessons, you have to search for a specialised tutor online. There are a few apps for this - one of these is 'Super Prof' but there are others.

I only really know about French. The professors I mentioned (Michel Billiers, Christophe Patris, and Cheryl Demhearter) do offer online lessons, but I think they are very oversubscribed. This doesn't mean that you can't get a session though.

There will also be native speakers who are PHD students in phonetics and/or general linguistics at various universities in the UK. It's worth looking into whether someone like this would offer private sessions for an agreed fee.

Not all course are expensive. You could try your local sixth form college. They may offer evening language courses open to everyone and they would be inexpensive. Also try https://sial.courses/

How do you get the phonetics lessons? My Spanish is a decent level but my accept is not so good

Spanish to a good level, but I did live there for 6 months. Start doing holidays etc in your chosen country, languages exchanges etc. Totally doable

There was a lady on the radio who said duolingo is great to give a bit of back up but if you don’t listen to people talking in the language, read eg kids’ books in the language and chat to people/ speak out loud regularly in the language it doesn’t do much. She teaches Spanish, German and Italian and is a translator and she says she knows countless people who finish duolingo and then go for classes

Mumbling is such a classic thing for French men of a certain age 😅

@Tootjaskoot There is research showing that it’s effectively not possible to become completely fluent in a language learned as an adult.

Could you please post a link to that research? Because 'fluency' means different things, and there's also the fact that 'fluent' does not mean 'native'. You can't be a native speaker unless you were born speaking that language, or you lived in the country from a very young age (probably 10 or below).

I speak several languages including Italian.

I have learned most of the languages I speak living in the country BUT you can obviously learn a language without moving abroad. To do that though you need to integrate as much of that language into your daily life.

With kids it’s known that ideally they should listen or be exposed to the language at least 50% of the time, on a daily basis, but for adults I would say there is probably much more exposure needed.

Swap your Netflix to Italian. Not English with Italian subtitles. Italian with Italian subtitles. Why? Because you can guess most of what happens and is said in a movie based on what you see, and by hearing and reading the same sentences all of the time in similar scenarios you will pick them up very quickly.
Start by your favorite movies and series to ease you up if you prefer but don’t fall into the trap of listening to things in one language while reading in an other because your brain will focus on what you already know (your own language) and you will pick up very little.So Italian voice over with Italian subtitles. Read books in Italian, start by books for kids and then move up little by little, also buy yourself an Italian cookbook in Italian and get into the habit of learning to follow recipes in Italian, translate what you don’t know and then you will see how quickly you learn all the vocabulary linked to food and cooking, go to language exchange meetings or find your local Italian expat community and ask if some would let you practice. Give yourself daily challenges, learn new vocabulary daily, give yourself random excercise such as “research and do a presentation about a historical figure” you don’t need a public it’s about you learning to collect information in Italian, you reading about specific topics in Italian, writing about them and learning to speak and pronounce the words. Ideally find a tandem partner an Italian who would love to learn English properly so you can both correct each other.

Pretty much just integrate Italian to your everyday life & even get into the habit of naming things in Italian for yourself be it going through the word in Italian for each item of clothing you are wearing, food your are eating, item you are buying.

Learning a language late in life isn’t impossible but it does require dedication and quite a lot of repetitive work.

If you go there every year why not do a language course while you are there? They’re not cheap, but are very good. Learning in the actual country is so good.

I teach french (also speak Italian, used to be fluent) and I find duolingo gives a strange basis. I’m teaching a couple of beginners that have done duolingo and it hasn’t given them much. Just a random vocabulary, it seems. Although it’s good for hearing the words. But they all say they feel that they’ve progressed much more having lessons. And not meaning to be rude, but the mistake you made in what you wrote just backs that up -it hasn’t given you an understanding of how to use the language. But stick at it. The desire to learn it is a huge positive.

Sorry to be a pain, but where is the subjunctive in your example?

In French I'd say something like:

J'aurais pas reservé un ticket aller et retour si j'avais su que j'allais faire la connaissance de tous ces gens sympatiques et passer un tel bon moment entre vous, mais malheureusement il me faut rentrer chez moi maintenant.

(I'm a bit rusty, so there may be errors, but I don't see a subjunctive construction.)

I think duolingo is great, I’m learning 5 languages on it. Unfortunately the Italian course on duo is surprisingly short compared to French for example and will only take you to A2 level. Some people start using busuu once they get to the dreaded daily refresh. Total fluency is really hard though. I’ve been learning French for 30 years plus 2 years living in France and I wouldn’t be able to convince a French person I was born in France. However I can speak it with relevant ease and understand about 95 percent and this is probably possible for most people. Duolingo estimates it would take about 700 to 800 hours to get good at a language. There are lots of Italian resources on audible that I listen to and I also have a teacher on preply who only charged £4 a lesson.

I spent time with a French family a few years ago and my goodness that was hard work, because I was missing all the context. Plus one of the men mumbled terribly.

I agree with you in principle, but there is quite a gulf between a fundamental misunderstanding of basic points of grammar and an obsession with 100% accuracy. You need a reasonable level of accuracy in order to be intelligible and if someone were to say to me, "I would like she speaks Italianish" I probably wouldn't understand what they meant.

Or, to put it another way, you need to master the basics if you're aiming for fluency, even if there are errors.

I'm currently doing an evening class with a tutor whose first language is Spanish and, although his English is generally very good (probably C2), I find the grammar and pronunciation mistakes really distracting when I'm trying to take in the fairly complex content he's teaching.