To think people who stay in abusive relationships long-term and expose their kids to it are complicit in harming them?

The thing about domestic abuse is it increases over time and it is process of wearing-down and entrapment that is tailored to the victim. Perpetrators are learning how to push the buttons of their victim and are also learning how to groom them and convince them that there isn't a problem, or that the victim the cause of the problem. Abuse is more sophisticated than most people imagine. Also it would be helpful if there was more understanding that a lot of perpetrators are very good at manipulating - not just their unfortunate victim but friends, family, teachers, lawyers, social workers and judges. If they ramped abuse up suddenly it would be easier for victims to leave but the goal is to keep and control family members. So perpetrators will treat the victim well at times and undermine the victim's self-esteem and confidence as well as isolate them so it is hard for the victim to trust their own thoughts. This is likely going along while a woman is having babies and then the abuse only really ramps up once the children have grown up a bit and perhaps the woman is a SAHM and financially very dependent at this point. Add to this a society that encourages women to question themselves and the tendency of people to invalidate women if they "bitch and moan" or be too critical or "demanding" of their man.

Domestic abusers, the majority of which use coercive control, use psychological warfare to dominate and frighten their partners. Tactics used by domestic abuse perpetrators are the same that have been used in war as means of psychologically brainwashing prisoners of war - and were seen to be very successful at doing so (eg prisoners who defected from the country they were fighting for!) You can read Jess Hill's excellent book "See What You Made Me Do" to gain a better understanding.

Also this podcast on Spotify, "The Trap" is an excellent off-shoot of the book.

open.spotify.com/show/42HlLwWwqtP3IheBgmJjnW?si=fL7tQOJ-RMW-XgcyK-TCUw

It's common for abuse to start in pregnancy, and also common for abused children to become abused women. Things which we would recognise as red flags won't necessarily seem at all abnormal to some women depending on what they have experienced in life.

But why keep on having children with the person in the first place, the idea that someone is perfect saint either no red flags before the first child may excuse having one with an abuser but doesn't explain to keep on having them

It does not take a university degree to know if you have a child with someone there will be more a chance they remain in the child/ren life after you split, so if they are that abusive use more forms of contraception or stop having sex

People put their own needs before the children they decide to have and 'I want a baby' seems to come before any logical thought

Yet we alo hear men need to 'step up' why on earth do mothers want fathers to step up if they choose to have one or some with an unsuitable father in the first place?

If there was a burning house children had to repeatedly enter, would you intermittently put the children inside alone and hope they were OK, or try to stay with them while inside to keep them safe?
When abuse isn't only directed at the woman but also the children it is much more complex than "just leave" with how the court system prioritises contact and how hard abuse is to prove given the nature of it happening behind closed doors.
The solution is a much lower threshold for supervised contact, but unfortunately the standard is often a few weeks of an hour and then signed off as unsupervised based on those supervised snapshots.

but to share a perspective that’s often overlooked

it’s one of the most common, pedestrian, rent-an-opinions out there. Along with people on benefits should just stop being so lazy and get a job. Etc.

Given that my ex was incredibly middle class high end profession he convinced me that he would fight to have the children full time, and that he would totally discredit me, to make sure that happened. He is almost certainly psychopathic so I have no doubt that he would have done that (and believe me he has tried to get me arrested on several occasions since I left so that he could take the kids using totally fabricated accounts). I had to wait to leave until I could be sure that the children were old enough to have their view taken into account. That is the only way that I could be sure he wouldn't get them full time.
If he had them full time I am fairly certain they would be dead by now. So sometimes it isn't as easy as, just leave, else you are complicit.

Yep. Dumped ex when dc were relatively young - 8 and 5. In hindsight it should have been far sooner!

These are (unfortunately) usually quite normal men actually. From all walks of life. More often than not they're known as pillars of their communities. Its rare that any of the abusers I've worked with have had a diagnosis of personality disorder or any other kind of diagnosis although when they do it can raise the risk of homicide specifically. Most have been normally functioning people with 'good' jobs like teachers, pastors, social workers etc. Never, ever have I seen one with a diagnosis of psychopathy even in the most violent cases. These men are highly self controlled.

The concept that men who abuse do so because they are "nuts" is a myth and quite a harmful one because it also suggests that they weren't in their right mind or in full control of themselves and are therefore in some way less culpable. Right along with the myths that men abuse because of alcohol or substances or other addiction. Or because they get angry. All absolute nonsense. They abuse because they feel entitled to - its an outworking of the systemic inequality of women and social misogyny. And that is why it is so, so important that we don't punish women or blame women, but instead push for a system that actually punishes men who abuse and does preventative work to stop young men growing up to think it's ok to abuse. At present just over 1% actually serve a sentence for domestic abuse, if SS are involved mum (who has been parenting in a high stress situation) is the one scrutinised. It is WOEFUL.

I hope you are OK

Well I regretted leaving for years. Before I left he did no childcare and all abuse was directed at me. After I left he got unsupervised contact and aimed his abuse at the children. This was what the family court decided. My son has told social worker daddy hits him and locks him in his room etc but because I lost in court it’s not seen as abuse.

if we had a legal system that actually protects women and children then no would agree with the sentiment the women who don’t leave deserve judgment. But the system we have will fuck them over for leaving

I see where you are coming from but these are usually men with personality disorders. In short they’re nuts unfortunately women do have to start stepping up to this one and I completely get the utter terror they must feel. A psychopath or Addict is not worth having any discussion with, they don’t care.

The most dangerous time for a woman is when she leaves her abusive partner.

There are many reasons why women don't just leave abusive relationships, lack of money, lack of support, fear of retaliation, fear of having to share custody of the chldren with their abusive/violent partner.

You sound as though you think that it's an easy thing to do and women don't do it because they don't really care about their kids.

Don’t you think that maybe we could be harder on the actual abusers, who cause all the issues in the first place?

Totally agree that who decides to stay in an abusive relationship when kids are involved is complicit in the abuse. Even animals and birds protect their young, so what excuse does a human have for not doing so?
A relative of mine chose to stay in a toxic abusive relationship for over 10 years.. Poor kids (3 of them, all born during the abusive relationship) suffered terribly.. The 2 eldest can't speak properly, stammer, wet the beds and are generally terrified of their own shadows. Relative finally left after basically being TOLD by Social Service that she risks losing her kids (rightly so) UNLESS she leaves.
Left him and what did she do next? Yeah, you guessed it.... Got with a new guy and moved him in with her and the kids within 3 weeks. Same story unfolded again, he was another abusive one with history of similar. Obviously relative didn't think to do background checks on him (Claire's law for example), just moved him straight in. A friend ran Claire's law check on him (out of concern) and guess what? Yeah.... Long history of abusing women. Relative was that desperate to be in a relationship, for her it was "better" than being single and just focusing on raising her kids... Frustratingly, kids are STILL in her care.

My Father was incredibly selfish, not an abuser. Then he lost his job and turned to drink. We had 18 months of that drinking before my Mother got an interdict, school reports, GP reports. He died not too long after as we’re talking full on alchy not some functioning one. I struggled to forgive my Mum for it taking so long, my brother and I suffered irreparable damage as a result. She paid over £5k in 1990 for this and had a good job to take over the house yet we were messed up as a result of her being a catholic putting marriage before the children (as apparently it say so in the bible). Oddly enough what made her get an interdict was her best friend from school said she never forgave her Mother for not leaving her Father when he drank (and he wasn’t in the same league as my father’s drinking).

When I got pregnant to someone clearly narcissistic My Mother then became a rock to me as was basically like “Get him out your life, don’t put him on the birth certificate and if you go back to him I’m writing you out my will”. I’ve had money, a house paid off and a career so I’ve been lucky but I know he’s went on to abuse other women and have several more kids. I will never forget the support my Mother offered me whilst I was being abused, she made up for not being quick enough to act earlier on and was there 24/7 for me when I had my child. Getting out of these relationships is imperative for the happiness, success and well being of children. Dithering about it, your children may struggle to forgive you. Yes it’s hard, these people manipulate and compare you to horrendously selfish women whilst taking no accountability for their own actions.

What I genuinely can’t understand is one of these relationships with a controlling abuser should be enough to be wary or at least have a few years break from dating but I genuinely don’t understand how some women and not wary and just pick up with someone else and repeat the pattern. I’ve stayed single for 18 years, dated and definitely met a few potential abusers, but my heart is not in it and it shows, there’s no vulnerability left.

I do think we need to be harder on Mothers in these situations and publicly so, not to shame them but bring more clarity to the situation they’re lightly being manipulated into staying. Children first and your relationship second, a public health warning. One of the reasons men get off with this is blurring the lines so make it clear in public health adverts. Get your kids out that situation.

Another thing and I cannot say for sure that it is the same in the UK but it probably is, you get barring orders, safety orders etc in Civil court not criminal court so a woman who has been harmed and abused multiple times has to pay to engage a solicitor/barrister to make that happen and the bloody offender has so many rights in that court and in our case the judge was cut from the same misogynistic cloth as FIL. The whole experience was unbelievably eye opening and beyond shocking. The court did not grant the order and the police who knew how bad it was told us they would respond as if there was an order in place to the best of their ability given how high risk the situation was.

Not they’re removing children from violent homes. And I’m against child removal in general and in favour of a system that makes it easier for women and children to escape abuse. But in the instances that after many chances and support parents still insist on keeping DC in a violent home they MUST be removed.

I don't think it's comparable to preventing burglary in the least... Domestic abuse is completely centered around loss of agency and having full control over another person by messing with their mind, their money, their parenting, their body, their relationships.

The other issue of course is that if you have no money, and no refuge spaces are available and you've been cut off from your family and friends- where would you go? Where would you stay? If you have no qualifications or experience in work If you've been a SAHP how would you find a job that would pay enough to make ends meet? How long do you think your estranged friends/ family would put you and 2 or 3 kids up on their sofa? What if your kids are too big for you to carry but they don't want to leave their dad (as many don't) do you leave them behind or do you stay to try and protect them?

You're over simplifying a very complex situation. Women usually do want to help themselves- it's just that they feel utterly utterly trapped.

Sometimes you get to control who gets access to your kids by staying. If you leave and abusive parent gets unsupervised contact with kids, it could put them at more risk. Every case is complex and different. It would be nice to think this is uncommon. In a perfect world the courts would work in domestic abuse victims favour but it doesn't happen as much as it should. Victims aren't believed.

That if, as a mother, you leave an abusive relationship, you are likely to find that your children are forced to spend time with their abusive father even when they make disclosures, even when their school confirm they have made disclosures to them, when when you have doctors and police reports that corroborate your story

Cafcass have a real agenda of not caring about abuse when it comes to separated parents, and pushing for shared care despite heaps of evidence this isn't suitable

Countless women have told this story on Mumsnet and elsewhere, yet still it is somehow our fault.

I did the right thing and left, only to discover I couldn't keep my children safe from their dad because cafcass didn't care.

This is why I will never get the tantrums over 'I wanna baby and I want one now!'' with absolutely no thought for the child growing from the cute baby phase into their own person as long as the 'baby' satisfies the parents need that is all that seems to matter either this or they put sex before anything else, no wonder why social services will never vanish, children seem disposable to some, I do wonder if there was more threat of criminal charges or a threat of benefits removal would make a difference but sadly no it would only harm the children more, yes people should have a license and a full medical and mental health assessment before having children, they are a privilege not a right,

Anyone who allows harm to come to a child should be jailed and not all this pat some parents on the head ''oh we need to understand their choices they are not to blame'' maybe parents should stop putting their own needs first? we constantly hear ''I have a right to have a baby what about my rights'' never hear the rights of the child

And having children should not be a hobby

You are right, but most people can't easily leave their situation. Having multiple children once you're in the situation though is negligence.

Another issue with this analogy is that it is a crime to steal and citizens are protected by laws against theft but the equivelent legal protection against violence at the hands of your partner does not exist in law or in practicality in many countries. So even if you leave and do all the "right things" you will not necessarily be protected by police or legal systems and your children are likely to be sent back into the care of their abusive father (or mother).

Bought it, read it in one sitting. What a book. I'll think of it when my kids wake me after not enough sleep.

Oh I definitely had mostly supportive comments but I was surprised at the sheer number of people who told me that I should have ignored cruel behaviour because effectively abuse victims aren’t capable of true cruelty. Wasn’t expecting that.