Person with MH problems should not be better off no working

I can't recall who asked for this, but here's a link to the FOI response regarding the number of recipients who don't have 4 points in any daily living activity:

response to PIP FOI request www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/90-pip-standard-daily-living-component-recipients-would-fail-new-green-paper-test?srsltid=AfmBOoqBJzt0ubbCnDxmP1vq61CXaUGyY2_Z0rUGDuUYL1kcHFxf0h74

For those on the standard rate, 87% would lose their PIP under the proposals, and on enhanced rate, 13%.

This would include my bipolar DB, mentioned upthread and a large proportion of my clients, who all have MH problems as their primary health issue.

It's not my personal FOI request. It was from someone on a disability group posted it.

However, anyone can put in a FOI request to the DWP.

I believe this person asked:
1 - How many people currently receive PIP and they asked for figures based on a list of medical conditions/disabilities that were provided as part of the the claimant's application.
2 - How many of those individuals in each of the categories DIDN'T score 4 or more in any of the categories for care needs (not mobility)
3 - For information on those of working age ONLY (not pensioners).

It would still be useful to see the FOI though. As I said, it assumes that the changes are approved, and that the criteria remain as they are - neither of which are a certainty. As I said, I am opposed to the changes, but in my view this biggest problem here is that nobody is properly consulting on the full scope of proposals. After all - those answers relate to conditions and PIP is not about diagnosis but about impacts as we are always at pains to explain to people. So telling us that 214,000 arthritis patients do not score four points in any category (and I chose that one because my main disability is arthritis) doesn't mean anything specific if the reality is that those people really do have limited impacts. I don't want to see anybody worse off, and I think benefit levels are too low anyway - but the most cogent arguments to defend people with disabilities are those that stand up to scrutiny. Many of the opposing arguments are based on sand ( e.g. "there's loads of fraud", "the DWP says there's close to 0%", "ah that's because they aren't looking") and we need to be cleverer than that.

That is how I read it too. Would be good to see what the wording of the FOI request was too.
It could also be applying to the numbers of people not on PIP at all, seeing as PIP is going to be used as a gateway to the enhanced rate of UC and no job search requirement.

I believe the FOI asked the DWP how many people who currently get PIP don't have at least 4 points under one criteria, as that is one of the changes. Sorry I haven't got a reference.

Given that the changes haven't yet been approved, on what is a FOI based? Can you please provide a link? I am opposed to the changes, but posting unverified claims doesn't help the argument - I am badly disabled, I do not subscribe to the notion that there are thousands of fraudulent claims, but even I would acknowledge that some few people exaggerate or falsify their condition. To be clear, I am acquainted with many, many people with disabilities, and I know of one who has exaggerated their condition. I know of many more who did not get PIP when they ought to have.

OP, I have some sympathy for what you're trying to say but I do worry that you're thinking is going to lead you to support policies that will reduce the incomes of people on less than 50% of the national minimum wage because a small number of disabled people earn slightly more than the NMW. My income is about £10,000 a year and I can't work. I have no hope of earning more. If they take this away from me I'm totally fucked. Please don't support these policies because a tiny number of people are not living in dire poverty.

Well, I've just seen a FOI request and these changes are going to affect:

23,000 cancer patients
214,000 arthritis patients
38,000 people with MS
11,000 people with cerebral palsy
83,000 people with respiratory or cardio vascular disease
97,000 people with musculoskeletal diseases

Yet, the powers that be will have you all thinking that this is about getting lazy people with mental health problems back in to work. For those that believe this, you're being manipulated by the powers that be and the press that are it's puppets.

PIP is not a benefit. It is an entitlement. If you meet the relevant criteria you are (theoretically) entitled to it. There is not a single benefit to being disabled. And yes, it should be replaced by a system that actually ensures that people entitled to it get it, and that the level awarded better reflects the costs of disability (which by every empirical study suggests that awards would be higher!) and enables the UK to meet the standards required by the UN. There is not a single disabled person who would trust the government - any government - to do that. Not even the UN trust them to treat people with disabilities as they ought.

What would you suggest? How would you categories disabled and Iill people?

Why and what do you suggest?

That's exactly why PIP should be abolished and replaced by a different type of benefit.

Many people with MH problems have done and are capable of doing non minimum wage jobs so they are worse off on benefits- a lot worse.

OP I know physically disabled people who work.
i know people with mental health issues who work.

I know it’s a crazy concept (said with sarcasm) but not everyone with a mental health problem is the same as the next, just like with physical disability.

just because some people with mental health problems can work it doesn’t mean they all can. It’s not a competition all based on you. You are lucky that medication can control your psychosis. What about those medication doesn’t it work for? You aren’t the barometer.

as a disabled person yourself i’m struggling to understand how this puzzles you.

and how little do you think they should get? Minimum wage is woefully low. Yet you think disabled people with no potential to earn more should get even less?

Haven't read to the end of the thread yet but isn't this the problem the government are currently in the process of solving by raising the minimum wage so it's decent. I don't think they need to cut benefits too as most people get far less than what this new mv would bring in and those who get more have met the bar for very high disability related costs.

I know. It's a sad state of affairs.

They are also probably disabled just for the ££££. What a life.

You clearly read it wrong… I was being very sarcastic. People are losing their lives over mental health issues. Taking money from them won’t help.. I’m on about genuine cases here. It’s just another battle for those with genuinely bad mental health.

Wow threads like this used to obviously be started by Labour bashers, now it could be Labour lovers, reform lovers or Tory lovers. There is no difference

Didn't realise mumsnet was for just randomly spouting opinions.

Why do people fall for this bad faith goady shit time and time again?

There's nothing new.

It's not that rare; in my family two are claiming for mental health, two for physical disabilities and two are carers.

the cost of a disability or a basic standard of living is always going to be more than minimum wage
so if you are saying that the disabled who can’t work should get less than someone working minimum wage then yes you are being unreasonable

I think you misunderstood me.
You are not the defensiveness I was highlighting. I was agreeing with you and don't understand why it must never be acknowledged that (some) people absolutely know just what to say or do for the diagnosis they seek 🤷‍♀️

Not always through choice. Some people will have been fired or made redundant. Or have moved to a new area and are looking for work. Or were previously unwell and now fit for work.