To NOT feel guilty that my kids are in childcare?

Do babies and toddlers magically not bite or push or do other toddler things at soft play and toddler groups?

You only have to look at the nursery threads to see what sort of things babies and toddlers are exposed to in nurseries. One thing that keeps popping up is about being bitten by other children and PPs commenting how common and unavoidable that is. How traumatising for babies to be attacked like that😔

You only have to look at the nursery threads to see what sort of things babies and toddlers are exposed to in nurseries. One thing that keeps popping up is about being bitten by other children and PPs commenting how common and unavoidable that is. How traumatising for babies to be attacked like that😔

You only have to look at the nursery threads to see what sort of things babies and toddlers are exposed to in nurseries. One thing that keeps popping up is about being bitten by other children and PPs commenting how common and unavoidable that is. How traumatising for babies to be attacked like that😔

Just curious.. what do you make of the young children who are excited to go to nursery?

Like my DD (almost 4 years old) goes two days a week (mostly so I can go to appointments and catch up on housework) and literally cheers when I tell her it’s a school day. She likes to see her friends and her teachers, play with a different set of toys, make artwork, do activities, and play outside. We don’t always fit socializing, art, and outside time all into a day because I’m often very busy. Sometimes it’s hard to get her to put down whatever it is she’s doing and get her to leave, come pick up time

I think at least a little bit of childcare can be beneficial. And children eventually learn that you’re coming back for them at the end of the day, so they don’t get as much separation anxiety when others’ are caring for them.

Just curious.. what do you make of the young children who are excited to go to nursery?

Like my DD (almost 4 years old) goes two days a week (mostly so I can go to appointments and catch up on housework) and literally cheers when I tell her it’s a school day. She likes to see her friends and her teachers, play with a different set of toys, make artwork, do activities, and play outside. We don’t always fit socializing, art, and outside time all into a day because I’m often very busy. Sometimes it’s hard to get her to put down whatever it is she’s doing and get her to leave, come pick up time

I think at least a little bit of childcare can be beneficial. And children eventually learn that you’re coming back for them at the end of the day, so they don’t get as much separation anxiety when others’ are caring for them.

Because no baby or toddler wants both parents to work full-time. They want/need to be with their primary caregivers as much as possible.

We twist ourselves in knots trying to deny that truth - but all child development research says that is broadly the case, and we also know it in our hearts I think.

The truth is that kids don't just 'fit around your lifestyle'. To do the best by them, adults have to make sacrifices. I know that's not what lots of people want to hear, and there is a lot of social encouragement not to hear it too.

(The question of whether or not the care is shared is about women's equality - my earlier point was to show that these sacrifices don't have to be solely made by women.)

Thankfully, babies/toddlers don't get to decide because they are babies/toddlers and can't even begin to understand the bigger picture such as finances, better opportunities for schools.. etc

You're right, they don't understand, and that's what makes it so awful I think. They are not adults or even rational - they just know that they are not with the humans who give them security in a huge and terrifying world which they don't have the neurological or psychological capacity to understand at even a basic level.

That results in a shutting down. Very small children don't 'learn to cope' - they learn to give up hope. These are not 'glitches' in the childcare experience as someone described them upthread - they are a natural and lasting response to trauma.

I understand that it is difficult to hear this on an emotional level, and difficult to mitigate on a practical level.

But I don't believe that, if we ignore aspirational pressures (see earlier point about capitalism/consumer culture), it would be impossible for many of us.

On your other point - you've missed me saying earlier that there should have been an organised societal shift, at the point when two incomes became more necessary, to normalise men going part-time when their children were small.

It's something that could be fixed if women made it a ballot-box issue, but as with many misogynies, we're trained not to see it, and to experience it as 'just the way things are'.

Women working full-time and having responsibility for the majority of caring and domestic tasks, most of the shitwork, and all of the mental load is the patriarchal norm, by definition.

I'm glad your children had a good experience @SouthLondonMum22 . I think a lot of the time, though, babies and toddlers don't - and parents have to look the other way in order to stay sane in what is actually an insane situation.

Men need to step up here and take some responsibility. Why is it women who should make it a ballot box issue? Why does it always have to be on women and why are they always to blame?

I didn't say women were to blame - the exact opposite. I said it's a function of patriarchy (and any successful power structure) to make its optimal environment seem natural, and that therefore women cannot be blamed for not seeing their own oppression, let alone not making it a ballot box issue.

However, if it's hard for women to see that they are essentially boiled frogs even though it is absolutely in their interests to do so, it's even less likely that men, who universally benefit from the boiling pan of water, will choose to give up the privileges they enjoy at women's expense.

Sorry for the strangled metaphors, but I hope you get my drift.

[As an aside, on an ideological level, I think that calling upon on the privileged to act ethically and reasonably, against their own interests, for the benefit of all, is a liberal idealist trope which exists to suppress radicalism or revolution. It makes it seem as if change requires consensus, which feels (and usually is) impossible. But we are not in that idealised liberal world - usually the oppressed have to take action ourselves.]

Thankfully, babies/toddlers don't get to decide because they are babies/toddlers and can't even begin to understand the bigger picture such as finances, better opportunities for schools.. etc

You're right, they don't understand, and that's what makes it so awful I think. They are not adults or even rational - they just know that they are not with the humans who give them security in a huge and terrifying world which they don't have the neurological or psychological capacity to understand at even a basic level.

That results in a shutting down. Very small children don't 'learn to cope' - they learn to give up hope. These are not 'glitches' in the childcare experience as someone described them upthread - they are a natural and lasting response to trauma.

I understand that it is difficult to hear this on an emotional level, and difficult to mitigate on a practical level.

But I don't believe that, if we ignore aspirational pressures (see earlier point about capitalism/consumer culture), it would be impossible for many of us.

On your other point - you've missed me saying earlier that there should have been an organised societal shift, at the point when two incomes became more necessary, to normalise men going part-time when their children were small.

It's something that could be fixed if women made it a ballot-box issue, but as with many misogynies, we're trained not to see it, and to experience it as 'just the way things are'.

Women working full-time and having responsibility for the majority of caring and domestic tasks, most of the shitwork, and all of the mental load is the patriarchal norm, by definition.

Thankfully, babies/toddlers don't get to decide because they are babies/toddlers and can't even begin to understand the bigger picture such as finances, better opportunities for schools and how it isn't always as simple as both parents working part time, especially if it would mean losing the flexibility that means both parents can flex around each other and do early pick ups from nursery 99% of the time which actually works out to be more beneficial as it doesn't come with a massive pay cut.

Making sacrifices doesn't have to mean the woman (because as you know, it is almost always the woman) throwing her career away and can't always be easily solved by both going part time.

Because no baby or toddler wants both parents to work full-time. They want/need to be with their primary caregivers as much as possible.

We twist ourselves in knots trying to deny that truth - but all child development research says that is broadly the case, and we also know it in our hearts I think.

The truth is that kids don't just 'fit around your lifestyle'. To do the best by them, adults have to make sacrifices. I know that's not what lots of people want to hear, and there is a lot of social encouragement not to hear it too.

(The question of whether or not the care is shared is about women's equality - my earlier point was to show that these sacrifices don't have to be solely made by women.)

Both parents do full time on opposite shifts. So child has equal care. And why would it make a difference to the child whether the parents work full time as they want to, rather than need to?

But when they are in childcare they are all stuck in one room with 10+ kids probably wrecking their stuff. People get the big house which then stands empty all day while they’re in work (to pay for the house) and kids are in nursery. Make it make sense.

What you call social development could also be viewed as 'coping skills' - learned responses to anxiety and sadness. Something that babies and toddlers shouldn't have needed to develop yet. Babies and toddlers are not office workers.

But when they are in childcare they are all stuck in one room with 10+ kids probably wrecking their stuff. People get the big house which then stands empty all day while they’re in work (to pay for the house) and kids are in nursery. Make it make sense.

Lots of arguments for why it’s better to move before kids/when they’re small. Sure- it’s almost always nicer to have more space but that’s not my point. My point is, it’s doable to have a smaller space when they’re little. It’s about priorities. If someone really wants to be present in their children’s life when they’re little, they will make it work. In my experience, kids always want to play where you are so we all end up in one room (I.e. lounge) and the bedrooms are hardly used.

P.S. If you’re already in a studio flat and still have to work to pay the mortgage then obviously that doesn’t apply.

I have a suspicion that your definition of a small space house is different to mine. My eldest often complains because my youngest wrecks what they are playing with. Having their own space is a good thing. Obviously your children aren't at that age.

Lots of arguments for why it’s better to move before kids/when they’re small. Sure- it’s almost always nicer to have more space but that’s not my point. My point is, it’s doable to have a smaller space when they’re little. It’s about priorities. If someone really wants to be present in their children’s life when they’re little, they will make it work. In my experience, kids always want to play where you are so we all end up in one room (I.e. lounge) and the bedrooms are hardly used.

P.S. If you’re already in a studio flat and still have to work to pay the mortgage then obviously that doesn’t apply.

I don't completely understand sorry - but if you mean the parents are sharing care and both working part time on a reduced income then that's what I'm suggesting is optimal.

If you mean that both parents absolutely have to work full time and share care on top of that to afford the minimum, then yes, that's really tough and you've got to do what you've got to do.

What you call social development could also be viewed as 'coping skills' - learned responses to anxiety and sadness. Something that babies and toddlers shouldn't have needed to develop yet. Babies and toddlers are not office workers.