To NOT feel guilty that my kids are in childcare?

@PurpleThistle7
No - I'm thinking that lots of people will have another toddler by the time the first is four.

I think you are deluding yourself I'm afraid - the idea that industrial childcare staffed by underpaid, under-educated staff with a high churn rate is anything approaching "being raised collectively" is a fantasy you're choosing to believe.

Of course you shouldn't feel guilty. I'm the complete opposite to you and was at home with mine the whole time and I wouldn't have changed it for the world. But it wouldn't be right for you and that's fine

That's exactly how I grew up, except bare bones so my mum could be a SAHM.

It was miserable and not something I'd want to emulate for my own children.

A good life to me does mean more than the basics and I don't think there's anything wrong with that, especially if you are prepared to work for it. It's about the DC too because our two full time wages means we can afford a house in a good area with good schools which doesn't come cheap, it means they can have their pick of hobbies, it means we can have quality time away together on holidays and most of all, it means growing up with financial security and saving for their futures.

Three certainties in life:

death
taxes
maniacs on MN insinuating that nursery is child abuse

@thestudio - so you also believe people should only have one child? Interesting.

and no - I don’t agree with anything you’ve said so far and still don’t. I don’t think children are better off at home, I don’t believe parents should work part time or not at all, I don’t believe anyone should aim for a bare minimum life, and I don't think children are damaged being cared for collectively.

I think you are wrong in every way ‘but’ am also sure you should be allowed to do as you wish with your life. I’m glad you are enjoying it and I’m sure your children are just as happy as mine are. I’m very glad we both live in a place with so many options.

There's a really good illustration of one of my points - that it's very possible to do without two full-time salaries while children are babies and toddlers if you ignore capitalism <shorthand> - on MN right now .

It's the 'how much do you have done' thread where people discuss the various hair and beauty services that they have done monthly, yearly etc.

BEFORE YOU RESPOND telling me I'm blaming women - it's pure chance that this is a beauty thread. It could just as easily have been 'how often you buy anything for or pay anyone to do anything house-related'. if we were on a men's forum there could be exactly the same thread about stereotypically male interests: bikes, gym, whatever.

The amounts being spent are huge. Obviously some people spend a lot more than others, and may have huge incomes to match. But it seems to me fairly obvious that across the board, what many working people now consider to be standard outgoings would have only been available to the rich thirty years ago. Capitalism, through its many megaphones, has convinced us that they are - ... not necessities, exactly, but what constitutes 'a good life'.

If you reduce things to the bone for 4 years - which if you think about it is a pretty small sacrifice when set beside your children's emotional development and future psychological health - it would be possible for many of us to do some version of part-time. Again, before having a go about me woman-shaming, I've said in previous posts that I strongly believe that both parents should share both the care and any career sacrifice that comes with that and it's not my fault if your own partner is a selfish misogynist arse who wouldn't see it like that.

Job fields are all different. I couldn't have take 10 years out, but others could.

However, 10 years out of a career has huge implications for overall earnings and pension contributions. Financial stability is such an important attribute.

And if you're lucky enough to afford it, some of the things this money can buy will have big benefits to DC. Uni paid for, masters degrees, deposits on flats, I could go on.

I probably could have taken a few years out from my career without too much of an issue getting back in where I left.

I didn't want to, though, because I don't enjoy being with my children full time and because I am not sold on the idea that childcare is bad for them.

I certainly could take 10 years out from working but I would then have to work my way up from that point - or perhaps a bit lower down to relearn everything that’s changed in 10 years. I’ve worked at the same place for almost 20 years and things are massively different to when I started. I couldn’t just come back in a decade like nothing had happened. I’d be way behind and I can’t see how I’d recover and get to where I’d be without that massive gap.

I feel absolutely no guilt about my children spending some time with trained professionals each week. They aren’t damaged, they aren’t broken and they definitely aren’t traumatised. My son is a massive extrovert and was so happy on his first day of nursery - and every other day after. He had a million friends, they all went to the park and the museum and played outside all day. And then he started school with no drama at all.

For what it’s worth - he was never hurt by another kid at nursery and got punched in the face week 1 of p1 by a child who hadn’t been able to attend nursery at all due to moving countries during lockdown. He’d spent the entirety of lockdown with his parents and had no idea how to share or be around other children. Not that this proves anything - it’s just an anecdote! Just like the stories you’ve seen about violent babies are just anecdotes - no one would make a post ‘had a perfectly lovely day at nursery today, how nice’ - people only post when there’s a problem.

I certainly could take 10 years out from working but I would then have to work my way up from that point - or perhaps a bit lower down to relearn everything that’s changed in 10 years. I’ve worked at the same place for almost 20 years and things are massively different to when I started. I couldn’t just come back in a decade like nothing had happened. I’d be way behind and I can’t see how I’d recover and get to where I’d be without that massive gap.

I feel absolutely no guilt about my children spending some time with trained professionals each week. They aren’t damaged, they aren’t broken and they definitely aren’t traumatised. My son is a massive extrovert and was so happy on his first day of nursery - and every other day after. He had a million friends, they all went to the park and the museum and played outside all day. And then he started school with no drama at all.

For what it’s worth - he was never hurt by another kid at nursery and got punched in the face week 1 of p1 by a child who hadn’t been able to attend nursery at all due to moving countries during lockdown. He’d spent the entirety of lockdown with his parents and had no idea how to share or be around other children. Not that this proves anything - it’s just an anecdote! Just like the stories you’ve seen about violent babies are just anecdotes - no one would make a post ‘had a perfectly lovely day at nursery today, how nice’ - people only post when there’s a problem.

My DD definitely played with other children well before the age of 3. She is also really good with sharing, and very patient about it… I’m not sure where she got her extraversion from, but she’s been like that as long as she could walk and say a few words.

I don't know about your field but in my field, you can't be out for several years and then just expect to walk back into a senior role.

If it was the norm for men to take career breaks for several years then it would be different but in my field? It just wouldn't be realistic when you're competing with men who never take career breaks.

Ok so you might have to put promotions on pause and re-join at the level you were at when the career break started (which is get you’re not interested in). It doesn’t sound like it’s impossible to get back to it though. Honestly it sounds similar to the field I’m in.

I think we need to stop telling women that they will never be able to resume their career if they take a break. If we made it the norm then it wouldn’t be such a big deal.

Several things. The main one is that it is male dominated so 99% of your competition when it comes to promotions etc are most definitely not taking career breaks or of course maternity leaves (that was hard enough and I had shorter ones), some of them are also married to SAHM's so they can stay late without a care in the world.

So what makes it so difficult to get back into your career?

It definitely is. Not all careers are the same.

I bet it’s not as difficult as you think.

It depends on the career. Mine would be very difficult to get back into after a prolonged break, especially if we're talking about multiple children and even more difficult to get back to a senior level.

It's good that it is possible in situations such as yours.

Because you quoted a thing saying babies needed ONE main caregiver. In my example there's BOTH parents who are equal caregivers, so not just one The child did go to nursery from age 3. 6 sessions over 3 days

Then you said about the baby wouldn't want parents to work full time

And I thought the thread was about childcare anyway not just nurseries

Ok then, good for you. You said something about giving up your career so I just pointed out that taking a break is not necessarily giving up your career.

If you read back, choices have been suggested which might not seem possible because we’re conditioned not to see them.,but actually would be for plenty of us, if we were to prioritise babies and toddlers’ emotional and psychological development.

They were at each other's houses at least 3 times a week.

I didn't want to take a career break just as my DH didn't. We've found a balance of working full time but flexing our hours around each other which means both of us can have our share of picking up DC's early from nursery and spending extra time with them and it isn't just one parent having that benefit.

What choice do the parents have?

I agree.

childcare (all aspects of it) IS a feminist issue - but the solution is not to send babies away from their parents five days a week - it’s to make men step up ans share the career sacrifices that need to be made when you choose to have children.

surely no one looks at their 9 month old and actually thinks ‘this baby doesn’t care where I am or who she’s with’?

i think we have to pretend to in order to avoid an unfair sacrifice of our careers - and I understand why women choose not to accept that unfairness. But there is a price to pay - it IS a zero sum game - and it’s the baby that is paying it.