To NOT feel guilty that my kids are in childcare?

oh look! I can also use google and copy links to show positive outcomes of nursery care 😄

https://www.familyandchildcaretrust.org/long-term-study-following-4500-children-links-childcare-better-outcomes

https://www.eif.org.uk/blog/the-seeds-of-success-taking-a-closer-look-at-new-data-on-the-impact-of-early-childcare-and-education

https://acf.gov/opre/report/childrens-learning-and-development-benefits-high-quality-early-care-and-education

https://www.nuffieldfoundation.org/project/the-impact-of-nursery-attendance-on-childrens-outcomes

To clarify and to go back to your original aibu, I don't think you or any other parent should feel guilty for using nursery. I think parents have to weigh up the pros and cons of their individual situation (especially the massive financial constraints). However, a well-reasoned decision needs to be based on factual information.

Here are some @Kanfuzed123 :

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/17405629.2011.571846

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0885200606000421

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2737370

https://academic.oup.com/cesifo/article-abstract/60/2/338/284199?login=false

https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2009-17898-001

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29904929/

https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2015-10039-001

https://pubs.aeaweb.org/doi/pdfplus/10.1257/pol.20170603

I went back at 3 months for the same reason, being out for too long would've been tricky.

I'm not at all concerned about them going to nursery from 3 months.

Can you link to those studies?

I've read a lot of studies into early childcare (and studied it at uni) and I've never seen anything that shows the opposite. It's quite a consistent finding across countries that under 2s show an abnormal cortisol spike (cortisol being a marker of stress) when they go to nursery compared to typical children or adults (where cortisol is high at the start of the day and then tapers off).

You keep saying the evidence isn't there - but it really is. There's also long term studies that link long days in nursery to aggression, antisocial behaviour, poor social skills and mental health problems in teens and adulthood.

Obviously there's lots of variables to all this stuff, and I've personally used early childcare straight after mat leave so I'm not anti nursery, but I think parents can't really deny that it's not the best for babies under 2. It's more something that is necessary for a lot of families imo

It’s a very reductionist approach to think in term of nursery either being ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or at what specific age it is ‘good’ or ‘bad.’

It’s entirely possible that nursery is simply a different, or additional experience. I’ve never claimed my children have better outcomes, are happier or did better at uni or whatever because they went to nursery. Like I’ve said repeatedly, I’ve no doubt they would be the lovely adults they now are if I’d never sent them.

the only measurable claim I can make is that nursery did enable me to continue working, which has actual, tangible results.

seems to me there is far more concern among parents who don’t wish to use nursery to try to claim it’s bad. Parents who do use nursery don’t seem so concerned about trying to claim it’s bad not to use them!

Because I don't think it will ever be as simple as designating one age-specific turning point. How could it be?

And whatever 'harms' or 'benefits' of nursery, they have to be considered in the context of the harms and benefits of lots of other things. Economic stability, parental mental health, family flexibility, the pro and cons of childminders/nannies/family care. There are so many variables.

Nursery at 9 months (for example) may not be optimal for all, but it might be the best solution for a particular family, thinking about the wider picture.

Yes, I have made that argument myself several times on this thread.

But you clearly refuse to engage with the actual question of if and at what age nursery is beneficial. You refuse to give your own opinion on what age a child should be before starting full-time. You dismiss mine and other posters' arguments with straw man claims like there aren't "hoards of 3 month olds" in nursery (which none of us ever claimed there were, just that it occasionally does happen). You refuse to give actual arguments about why nursery is or is not beneficial for the majority of children.

So with that in mind, I'll stop responding now.

Nope not one ounce of guilt here.

My kids learned to socialise at a young age and didn’t only have me and the occasional play date or group for company.

They learned that I was an Independant woman who chose to work and set a good example for them.

They had no problems transitioning to school.

They did far more activities and crafts than I could ever have done .
No kid missed their parents when they are at school. And no father ever feels this way abiut having their kids in school/nursery.

Teachers say you can always tell the difference between a kid who went to nursery me who was only ever at home. They also tend to catch issues with kids earlier at nursery and work with local schools to transition kids.

Stop feeling guilty. If you want to stay home do so. Otherwise feel proud you are setting a great example with a woman’s independence.

Me: kids, big surprise for you: I’m taking the day off work and we’re going to go to the aquarium!
DC(5): awww but Abra and Cynthia will be at daycare today! I wanted to play with them!
DC(3): we’re making a volcano!
DC(5): can’t we go to the aquarium this weekend instead? Pleeeeease?

You're thinking in extraordinarily binary terms here. The decision won't come down to 'we have decreed nursery is beneficial at X months, so that's what everyone should do'.

Every family situation is different, every child is different, there isn't going to be a right or wrong solution across the board. Nursery at 9 months (for example) may not be optimal for all, but it might be the best solution for a particular family, thinking about the wider picture.

But the two are linked. If nursery is considered beneficial for, say, the average 6 month old then there is no pressure for the government to extend paid parental leave beyond that.

If, on the other hand, there was a consensus that nursery at 6 months old can cause harm (obviously not to all children, but for some that are more sensitive to stress etc) then there would be much more political pressure to extend parental leave.

@Kanfuzed123 Of course outcomes are important! I'm saying it will likely prove very difficult to directly trace the 'outcomes' of childcare because it will be obviously be mediated by so many other variables - eg, off the top of my head ... quality if childcare, family structure, socio-economic status of family, educational background of family, number of siblings, health factors, mental health issues, personality, educational ability, SEN, abuse, childhood traumas, cultural factors, random events - you name it.

Direct analysis of babies in full time childcare settings is likely to be more informative in assessing, on a societal level, the impact of childcare - at what point and in what circumstances can it be considered disadvantageous, neutral or beneficial.

That's all I'm saying.

Okay, please tell me which of the many research papers linked to in this article are 'spurious' and why.

criticalscience.medium.com/on-the-science-of-daycare-4d1ab4c2efb4

As I said, you're diagnosing the wrong problem. What's going wrong with maternity provision if hoards of 3 month olds are in full time nursery? That's a different problem.

But I'm not quite sure what you are asking? Personally I think we should be focussing on better maternity provision for all, to give mothers more choices. Not all nurseries are the same either, so bear in mind you aren't comparing like with like.

Actually to be fair, some posters have explained that they don’t like the idea of nursery and choose not to send their own children. Which of course is fine! It’s only when people extrapolate from their own opinion that therefore nursery is bad for all children; or when they use spurious ‘evidence’ to try to argue that nursery is bad that it’s not fine

But like I said, the edge cases are useful in establishing a baseline of agreement. Then we can debate the exact cut off point - would you personally put it at 6 months? 1 year?

The vast majority of younger colleagues who go off on mat leave are taking a full year. Some return a little earlier, eg when child is 9/10 months.

Since the days when we all returned at 3 months (or gave up work) I’ve only known a couple of people return to work around the 3/4 month mark. One was in a very niche (but also quite flexible) line of work where being out for too long would have been tricky. Her dd is now early teens and a lovely young person.

You keep saying no one is explaining why they're against nursery. That is simple untrue. Many posters, myself included, have explained our reasons. You happen to disagree with us, which is fine, but it's disingenuous to keep insisting that no one has actually put forth a reasoned argument.

We'd be much better basing the conversation on things that are actually happening at any scale, rather than edge cases.

If we have hordes of 3 month olds in nurseries (though I doubt we do), the issue there is not about appropriate age for nursery attendance, but about maternity provision.

Lets diagnose the problem properly as a starting point.

I changed direction @Kanfuzed123 because working in Child Protection with babies got too stressful.

I've given the example of 3-month-olds in nursery (which does happen, though yes it's rare) to illustrate that age matters in these conversations.

I think the majority would agree that a 3-month-old (or even younger) in full-time nursery is not a good idea. Likewise, I think the majority would agree that a 3-year-old in nursery would be fine and help them socialise.

The argument then is where to draw the line. Is 4 months ok? 5? 6? and so on.

Based on my reading on the subject, I would draw the line at around 2 years old. Others on this thread clearly disagree. But then I wonder, where would they draw the line?

Also just want to add that my arguments are based on full-time childcare. The research is much less clear on the balance of disadvantages/benefits of part-time childcare.