To think not everyone should be a parent?

So it is what is best for the mother not the poor children who are treated like an accessory? and are only useful when they serve a purpose?

I know somebody who had one child and quite frankly she has been miserable ever since. She went from a very high flying high income job in London back to the provinces where she came from and a very low earning job. Her partner has always been a very low earner which has not helped matters The poverty has made her miserable.

By far the most intelligent and nuanced take on the subject I've read here.

I would take this one step further and say that there should be " permits" or "licenses" to have kids. You should be able to prove that you are financially and emotionally stable enough to provide for a child and raise them in a loving and stable home. So many people have kids without thinking about the implications and consequences and unintentionally (& sometimes intentionally!) cause untold psychological and physical damage to their children. What breaks my heart the most, aside from physical abuse or emotional abuse that parents subject their kids to is when you hear about kids being sexually abused by a parent. It makes me so angry and upset that an adult could violate a child in this way and break the sacred trust between a parent and child. Imagine how scarred that child is going to be for life! These people should never have been allowed to become parents in the first place, that is the fatal error and it's this patriarchal narrative that we've all bought into where people should just conform and have children. No we shouldn't. As a former teacher, you witness so much psychological damage and neglect and abuse and some people should never be allowed to mind a dog, let alone become parents, yet the state allows it and actively encourages it.

Do you have children op? @ThisQuickLemonPoster

I wonder if the choice is a shitty man vs. no kids truly.

To me “a good man who I don’t fancy on the slightest” to get kids is better than the “shitty man who I fancy” if you are that desperate for kids you throw sense out of the window.

Because it’s preferable to have kids with a shitty man than not have them at all, I suppose.

Why on earth have kids with somebody hoping they will change?!

It’s not suicidal.

We are living in strange times where people are first culturally driven to be more and more self centred and phone dependent which makes putting children first harder and second wages are not sufficient to afford housing and childcare. The rising pension age means fewer grannies can help. Birth rates are falling but this probably means fewer children born to sensible people...

I think a lot of people miss the point, yes, not everyone is made to parent, but parenting is about looking after your children and equipping them with what they need to be amazing adults.

@theprincessthepea I agree with this. Money certainly isn’t the most important factor.

Completely agree OP - I should never have had a child - I've done most of the hard work; he's 23, a lovely person, hard-working and off to Uni in Sept, but can be a bit of hard work as he's autistic.

Once you take over the reins all he needs to do is call me occasionally and the odd postcard would be nice.

Thank goodness for people like you OP as only a few would take on the burdens that so many of us have carried alone. Just makes me feel so warm and comfy from tip to toe.

On paper I shouldn’t be a parent. But I do think I’m a great parent. I love my kids. I fight for them. I work damn hard to give us all a good life and I have the best time with my family. I think a lot of people miss the point, yes, not everyone is made to parent, but parenting is about looking after your children and equipping them with what they need to be amazing adults. Whilst life is happening. Life doesn’t stop when you become a parent - it keeps going - and things change. And you’ve got to be good at problem solving, thinking on your feet, calm under pressure, loving and all sorts of other skills that can’t always be taught.

Some people can’t and will never have it in them to have the years of love and patience you need to raise children selflessly, whilst being a good example and living your life as an example to them. It’s so so hard. But some people find it easier than others - but when I look back at my childhood - what mattered most was love, having role models as parents, having my needs met and being comforted or pushed at different points in my life.

Overall I don’t think parenting is about being the richest - there are people that grow up having it all and yet still end up being the worst citizens, having lots of trauma because trauma gets passed down. There are people that grow up with 2 parents and still end up lost - maybe the parents arnt emotionally available. I know people that don’t have much but are the happiest and well rounded people.

What I’m trying to say is that the cocktail of being a good parent is complex, and depends on the parent and the kids and their environment.

In the west the parent belongs to the mum and dad - and the mum gets all of the responsibility - it shouldn’t be this way.

I agree.
My biological father should have never had children.
He is an awful, cruel man without a drop of empathy, love or care towards his children. At the age of 44 I still struggle daily with the aftermath of his awful parenting.

Thank god for my actual dad ❤️

I will put my head above the parapet. People without the financial means to raise children with any decent standard of living.
I dont know what the solution is as that would mean only the rich had children which isn't right either.

I guess it depends on what’s considered a decent standard of living. You just need to read threads on here to see that what one person considers ok someone else would consider totally unacceptable. You can’t even rely on things like housing (some folk are fine with siblings sharing a room, someone else considered it totally unacceptable, heating, diet, education, clothing etc, people have such different standards and they all cost more or less money.

Throw into that job losses, disabilities, relationship breakdowns, interest rates changing and someone can go from being comfortable to really struggling.

And then at what point should children be expected to contribute to household costs as they move towards adulthood? You shouldn’t need to be rich to have children, never mind we good never get consensus on what that means. I was raised in poverty, compared to my parents situation I’m rich, compared to most of the posts on here I’m barely even average.

Of course yanbu. But people don't realise how limited their skills and capacity are until it's too late!!

What might help, is women being allowed and supported in being more truthful regarding motherhood. The risk I understand is ones own children ever feeling rejected but I think this can be managed to not hurt them.

My own mother and I openly talk about regrets here. It is not hurtful to me at this age. It's honest. Many people would not do it if they knew of certain outcomes yet,they won't openly admit. The reality is for many nothing like the myth perpetuated by society and further perpetuated by other women and these ridiculous ceremonies of celebration when the next sproglett is announced.

I want more honesty.

First was an accident.

Second 12 years later, after PCOS, scans, fibroids, being told I couldn't have another was, bloody inconvenient.

I couldn't love either of them any more. Especially now that they've moved out.

I dragged them both up single handedly. They're okay I suppose...

I will put my head above the parapet. People without the financial means to raise children with any decent standard of living.
I dont know what the solution is as that would mean only the rich had children which isn't right either.

But having been raised in a very low income household with my mother on benefits and never working, I don't think it's right that somebody bring children into that situation. This was back in the days when you used to collect benefits in cash at the post office counter every monday morning. We would run out of money by about saturday.And there was no money for the weekend and we had to hang around finishing what was left in the house. Sometimes we ran out of food if we'd had bigger expenses during the week.

Then, of course, there was that delightful spot where I turned eighteen, and I was no longer eligible for child benefit, and I hadn't finished my a levels. My mum was in sensed and told me as she was very worried exactly what benefits she was losing for me. What did you want me to do about it. You don't turn into a fully functioning.Adult at eighteen was a massive earning capacity, you've got to work towards it.

In arguments she would tell me, I am not obliged to keep you anymore. The government doesn't give me any money for you. Where was I supposed to go. She got rid of me to university in at least.I had a maintenance grant and alone for my hall fees. When I came back in the summer holidays if I worked, she wanted money of me.

Then when I got her first job after university, the first thing that happened was that her benefit were cut because of my income low though it was at that age.

So instead of being able to save anything in my early 20s, from my own place i had to give my mum a massive portion of my money based on the benefits she lost

I got stuck at home because of that reason. Between student loan payments and her rent charges, which were massive because it wasn't a council house, it was a private landlord, claiming housing benefit. So when her benefit got cut, there was quite a big shortfall for the rent that I had to make up. I had to pay a shortfall for commercial rates of rent for a private landlord's house.

But here's the thing I wouldn't have chosen to live in a house that size or pay that much rent for it. But because I was obliged to pay for it because her benefits were cut because of me.There wasn't the opportunity for me to have any breathing room to try and save a deposit for a flat share with friends.

I am glad of my life and to be alive. But upon reflection, I am not thankful for the life she gave me. It was constantly going without never having enough and then when I try to get any independence, I was obliged to pay a large amount of rent for her house.I didn't want to be in.

Im a parent and I moan and complain a lot I love my kids unconditionally however I'm allowed to feel to heal life for anyone with or without kids isn't miss Pamela perfect it's full of ups n downs unless kids are being abused that is different but some people need to mind their own business and life and stop criticising things they see without taking a long hard look in the mirror

From time immemorial no one had the choice to be a parent unless they were celibate for life.

We’re living with the hangover of that in our standards for upbringing.

Women were forced into parenting which didn’t exactly raise care standards.

Only in the Victorian era did the idea of a good mother pop up. Toffs and the middle classes never brought up their own children, anyway.

Childcare’s still the most outsourced and oldest job on the planet.

The world would be a much better place if people asked "Can I give a child a good upbringing?" rather than "Do I want a baby?" but very few seem to do that.

I think that with the exception of those who are abusive, that actually the vast majority of parents are doing their best, learning as they go and trying to get things right for the children as they get to know them better.

I also think that societal expectations have never been higher on parents, and that this, combined with less support than in the past, understandably means parents might need to moan and let off steam now and then.

Nobody’s perfect, love is imperfect, both parents and children on the whole love each other unconditionally 🥰

Well those who have unprotected sex then are surprised when they find themselves pregnant - there's a good starting point! Seriously? If you didn't know that unprotected sex might end up with a baby then you shouldn't be having sex!

On a more serious note, as long as a parent prioritises their child and puts their child's needs first then fair enough. It's parents that quite clearly don't prioritise their child's needs that shouldn't be having kids. It's so sad the levels of neglect I see in secondary schools - I really have to question why some people have children when they're not interested in parenting them and their wellbeing.

Of course there's such a thing - different cultures / societies / countries / eras have treated parenthood very differently. For most of human history, before effective contraception, children were just something that usually followed marriage and there wasn't much choice. And "barren" women were often treated as cursed, and large families were usually seen as a good thing because the kids were going to work on the farm or whatever, and support you in your old age. Post industrialization (and the advent of social welfare programs etc) children were seen as more of a burden than an asset and smaller families were favoured, and contraceptive methods improved. But for a long time, having kids wasn't really treated as something that ought to be optional, and was generally presented as something that ought to be the main focus and goal of a woman's life. Then women started working more and prosperity increased and there was more of a focus on providing education and a high standard of living for kids - this, plus the fact that women were still doing most of the childcare as well as working, led to the general idea in the modern developed world that two kids is the right number.

Now we in the world's most developed countries are moving towards an entirely unprecedented way of treating parenthood - the idea that it's a perfectly valid option to be childfree by choice is really gaining ground. A good thing in my view, but a very new one. These days, people can fuck all they want and not have babies if they don't want, and reproduction is often treated as just another lifestyle choice.

Today we have societies that embrace the childfree and ones that ostracise infertile women and bar them from many aspects of adult social life (common in many traditional communities of Africa and Asia). Countries that give a year's paid mat leave and countries that give none. Countries where childcare swallows a salary and countries where it's virtually free. Countries where social policy encourages men to do their share of parenting and countries where the idea is laughable. Countries where fertility treatment is made available to single women and gay couples, and countries where it's almost impossible for anyone to access. A country (China) that has moved from barring people from having more than one child to desperately trying to raise the birth rate, in the space of a few years.

How the whole idea of parenthood is treated varies WILDLY, and long has done. It's bound up with all kinds of aspects of culture, economics, medicine, work, gender relations, politics, religion, ideology, education and everything else that governs how we live and the choices we make. At present in the UK it's mostly treated as a sort of hobby - an entirely personal choice that you'd better manage and finance entirely alone, and if the burden falls harder on women tough shit. But with a big dollop of "you're an unnatural unfeminine monster if you don't want it", for a lot of women, a lot of the time. The way we treat parenthood in the UK at present reflects our status as one of the most individualistic societies in the world, with very little sense of collective responsibility for the future; it also reflects the fact that we're still pretty sexist. Compared to the family-friendly policies of Scandinavia, we suck. Compared to the US (no mandatory paid mat leave), we're doing great.

Unless perhaps if we're billionaires who are also psychopaths, none of us can escape the influence of the social, political and economic forces we live under.

Some people are not made for it at all. One of my sisters is child free by choice and it’s totally the right decision for her. She’s aware her mental health wouldn’t cope with a child, so she has chosen not to bring one into the world and repeat the cycle that was our own upbringing.