To think it doesn't always start at home?

I get your point but in London no under 16 pays for the bus, so I wouldn’t use that rationale myself. As long as you’re of an age where you can double up somehow (and I remember often doing this with friends in my teens), you should do so when space is at a premium.

It’s just manners really. Like the example I gave at work. Do you think a car mechanic wants your feral child running around their work space, screaming and demanding attention whilst both parents are there. Or should one patent remove the child so that the mechanic can actually do their job. This is what I see time and time again. Just because I’m female it doesn’t mean I want to tolerate your screaming child.

A 12 year old is obviously able to stand- a 3 year old isn’t. Where the line is drawn will always be ambiguous and on a case by case basis- same with giving up your seat to the elderly. I do think young people should be taught to give up their seats for people less able to stand than themselves and to be considerate of that- sounds like lots of adults on this thread need to learn that basic lesson in empathy and respect , entitled as they seem to be that their needs take priority over little people and that mothers should be used as extra chairs!

“Modern parenting philosophies” are causing a generation of children to be unable to function in a society that doesn’t centre them 24/7.

I’m happy to kick those into touch and teach my child that she is not the centre of the universe and to consider others’ needs as well as her own and not confuse needs with wants.

As this thread and so many others on MN show, not teaching children respect for elders and authority doesn’t help children or society in general.

Regarding the taking up of a seat. At what point would you put your 3 year old on your knee? For a pensioner to sit down? For someone with a baby? For a person on crutches?
You really wouldn’t move your child under any circumstances?
And yes, if they haven’t paid for a seat and someone else has, then they should be moved. Quite often the person standing will say it’s fine I’ll stand. Again a fare paying passing might find it difficult to stand. They absolutely should get priority over a child that hadn’t paid for a seat. If you don’t like it then pay for a seat.

At what age does the child become able to stand though? I’ve seen people use the argument that “they are more likely to fall and injure themselves” when talking about a 12 year old!!!! The same 12 year olds that are the same height as adults and that do wheelies on bikes and roller skate and ride skateboards. At what point does “you are a child and need a seat more than ANYONE ELSE become actually now you need to stand. Parents often don’t really “notice” their child getting older as it were. They still think of them as small and more vulnerable. So suddenly they are a 6ft 13 year old on the bus alone and has never once been told to stand for anyone else because THEY are more important being a “child”.
(please don’t anyone start about hidden disabilities. This is obviously not aimed at them. It is about people who have actually said on threads like these that general 12 years olds are more vulnerable on transport than older people.)

And it is mothers. A father would probably be praised for taking the DC out in the first place.

Exactly. Thank you. This is nothing to do with children respecting adults and everything to do with people disrespecting mothers.

Regarding the 3 year old on the train, they don’t pay for a seat do they? If they do then fair enough but otherwise they should not take up a seat. Rather like a bag, that hasn’t paid for a seat either.

oh god not this shit again. Fare concessions on public transport are offered as a social benefit, it should have nothing to do with seat allocation. Or do you think old people and disabled people and jobless people aren’t entitled to seats either? Are they just equivalent to baggage to? Or is it only small children you don’t recognise as having human value?

Have you read the thread about the 10 year old calling get mother fat etc and the father/husband laughing along and the mother just feeling terrible and not using any sort of consequence?
It does start at home. It also starts in the homes of peers so parental responses are important. DS and DH were playing a board game recently DS pulled off something tricky to put him ahead of DH and then told him to 'suck it'. The game stopped immediately and the first thing we did is ask where he'd heard that and what did he think it meant (at school from a friend and he didn't really know), he was told it was absolutely inappropriate, he was mortified, apologised to DH and promised to never say it again. (He's 6)

On the flip side I heard a slightly older boy being told by his mum to stop being a little shit on the way to school a few weeks ago. Pretty sure she wouldn't bat an eye at suck it.

Using a parent as a child stacking and storage mechanism on public transport is not a great example tbh.

Regarding the 3 year old on the train, they don’t pay for a seat do they? If they do then fair enough but otherwise they should not take up a seat. Rather like a bag, that hasn’t paid for a seat either.
Unpopular opinion but school was much better when discipline was firmer. When I was at school bad behaviour was dealt with and I can tell you that it made school a far safer place for students like me. I was studious and very shy. I remember a girl kicking me in PE. The teacher grabbed her and dragged her out of the hall and she was punished. I’ve no idea what her punishment was, but corporal punishment was in use. She never did it again and I was free to enjoy my lessons without the threat of some bully making my life a misery. All those who bemoan strict discipline never actually attended a school which used it, or they were the problem and they were bullies.People like me who never got into trouble and lived through it all agree it was much better. The thought of swearing at a teacher was absolutely unheard of. If anyone did, trust me, they would only do it once.
As for children today some are nice some aren’t. At work it is not my job to parent your children. From experience those with unruly children just hand them a phone to try and passing them.
They don’t seem to think they need to parent their own child and teach them how to behave. Letting them scream and scream and talk over me.
The appointment isn’t for their child so I say one if you wait outside and I’ll speak to the other patent alone. They look aghast, how will they cope, alone with their child having to actually deal with the unruly child. Often they don’t leave saying oh it’s ok. Well it’s not ok. I don’t want to hear it. Then they wonder why their child grows up to be a little shit.

I don't know whether it's saying they're less important. In most (Not all) cases a 3 year old could still have a seat on their parents lap, while freeing a seat for someone else, so both parties are able to sit down, for the journey.

I don't think anyone is advocating a 3 year old should stand on a bus or train.

But also it's modelling being aware of other people and potentially making minor adjustments to accomodate others...eg if you're out for a walk, move into single file to pass people rather than continuing 3 abreast and making them wait, or move into the road to pass which seems to happen to me very frequently mostly with adults No one is "more important" than the other but it's a courtesy so both people can continue their journey.

I agree. I think it does start at home. I think culturally in this country more than most there is a disdain for education and teachers, which is one of the reasons why children from immigrant communities in the same social circumstances tend to achieve so much more educationally. I feel this has become more commonplace, and more accepted amongst parents to see teachers as glorified babysitters. Many dont see the point in school or education.

Normal children don't speak to teachers like that.
Those that are dragged up do.
Do you report it or do you have to just try and deal with it yourself?

viewing it through a lens of the child’s rights, the mothers rights not have a child on her lap, a small persons needs are as important as a big persons needs etc etc is just a bit irrelevant surely? Why be so hyper vigilant about rights and needs when it comes to something that has such a simple solution?

I’m not the one being “hyper vigilant” or imposing any kind of narrative about who trumps who though. It’s other pp’s who are doing this when they raised this scenario in the first place and are insistent that children need to be taught to give up their seats for adults in order to “learn their place in society” and instil “manners” and “respect”.

FWIW, the principle I always follow is that those less able to stand for whatever reason - older people, little people, disabled people, pregnant people , etc - take priority for seats in public transport. Seats should always be allocated on the basis of need and not some archaic notion of social hierarchy. I would always give up my seat for someone less able to stand that me, and if I was travelling with children and there was a means of squeezing us all in, I would. However, it should also be noted that the solution of having a small child sit on the lap of their parent is not always the “simple solution” people think it is- there could be any number of factors that make this impractical in different circumstances.

Of course it starts at home. My DC had some very minor behavioural issues at school. He was on report (pre-emptively) for 4 whole days, because we backed school up and dealt with it. He was terrified for us to find us out he was in trouble because of how strict we are. The awful punishment he was dealt? Temporary ban from electronics and a stern talking to.
But it was much the same when I was at school. Naice middle class kids, poor behaviour, bullying, sexual harassment was rife. It's not a new issue.
As for the respect for elders stuff, I guess that's the downside to the breakdown of the "village". Kids who have nothing to do with any older people don't learn this "respect". You get back what you give I think. Grandparents opting out enmasse, but still expecting toddlers and their mums to fawn?

Funnily enough, though, my paternal grandmother was a supply teacher in the 1920s and she used to regale us with very similar stories. What was to blame back then - the wireless? Newspapers? The combustion engine?

What does “being ratioed” mean?
I’m certainly not uncomfortable with holding a minority view. sometimes people’s opinions are the whole problem. Look at who’s in office in the US atm. 😂
I have to say I am shocked , however, that so many mums-netters think that children need to be taught that they are of lesser importance and value than older people in 2025, and that this has something to do with “manners” and “respect”.

It comes from other kids who are setting the examples and maybe getting it from home or the internet.

I have an autistic son who’s been unable to access mainstream school. After years fighting the LA he gets two half days a week forest school with other kids. he’s not been allowed the internet or Roblox no online games where I don’t know the people etc. He’s challenging due to his SEN but always loving and respectful. Since spending time with other kids he’s picked up such a horrible disrespectful attitude outright refusing to do things he’s always done easily. “You can’t make me” “I will take my plate out if you give me cake” all that skibidy toilet slang. He doesn’t get this from home it’s from other kids and how the other kids are treating adults in front of him and not facing consequences. When I have pulled him up for speaking to his 1:1 badly in front of me the 1:1 says oh don’t worry not his fault he’s SEN and doesn’t mean to be horrible. I’ve had the feedback multiple times that I’m too strict by people who think kids taking to adults like shit is acceptable. I honestly don’t know what to do as my kids need social interaction but the negative influence they get from it is more than I alone can counter

What is “children’s place in society”? Beneath adults?
Do you consider children a lesser category of human than adults?
Absolutely bonkers that people are still spouting this shit in 2025 as if it’s ok and normal.

This is my DS1 at just 14months 🤣 he definitely wouldn't fit on our knee at 3 years old. I wish haha

I don't recognise much of the stuff on mumsnet tbh. I've no doubt this behaviour occurs, just as it did back when I was at school in the 80s and 90s. I went to an inner city comp with an eclectic range of pupils, and there were always a few who behaved like this and were rightly punished. As a pp said though, in some ways rules are stricter now. Behaviour points for all manner of minor indiscretions and inconsistent, arbitrary rules. All the teenagers I know who attend bog standard comps say the experiences we hear on mumsnet just don't happen at their schools on a more than occasional basis.

I do however think that when it does happen it almost always starts at home. And I do think that unlike back in the 80s and 90s, parents challenge school's authority more, which is unhelpful. Calling or emailing for everything that happens. I've always said to ds that I may disagree with some of the rules, and he may do too. But if he doesn't like them he must still abide by them. And if the rule really is that ridiculous then do something (politely) about working to get it changed. I've disagreed with a couple of sanctions he's had, but told him I expect him to do them anyway and won't be going into battle for him because the teacher obviously had their reasons. Invariably we'll reinforce the sanction at home, too. I don't know many parents who take this approach though.

You obviously don’t teach in wales then 🤣 yes kids did use to treat teachers like shit, I’ve seen it with my own eyes going back 30+ years.

I think it often does start at home but not always. Some of it can be the school environment and what they’ve picked up on as acceptable/cool from their peers too. As a PP mentioned, some of it is social media memes/skits too. But, more often than not, I think it’s the home.