To think it doesn't always start at home?

But that’s my point. There is a world of difference between “children and adults should stand for someone who needs a seat more than them” which I have been telling my kids since they were 1, and “get out of the seat for an adult, children should stand” which is the attitude some of the posters here are professing.

If we had an inkling someone needed a seat more than us, both I and my kids would be on our feet. Genuinely, though, why should we be standing up for an able bodied adult? One of my kids has a disability, you wouldn’t necessarily be able to tell which one, so I know all about invisible disabilities.

Honestly, respect goes both ways.

Where I grew up if you’d made mischief you could count on your mum having been phoned by his knows how many other mums before you even walked in the door. You absolutely didn’t want to see that face.

Similarly, on the first day of term your mum would say “do not make me come up that school”. This was at a time where you’d routinely have classes +30. Yes, there would always be a couple that would give backchat a try, but a punishment (no corporal by then) meant seeing it through and was backed up by the whole staff and your mum got a letter. Handing one of those over meant serious trouble on your head.

My parents, and others like them, wanted their children to do better than them. Doing well at school was seen as a top priority. This wasn’t an affluent community, but teachers were respected in the same vein as the GP and the local policeman.

Denial? I asked you a question!

Yep same.

Thing is, they weren't like that with every teacher. The ones who they thought were cool or scary were treated very differently.

A lot of kids will treat you like crap if they think you're a pushover and they don't really like you.

So much more swearing in general. You've only got to look at mumsnet.
They don't really have any standards.
Social media and phones haven't helped either.
I see there are also support groups for parents who are beaten and abused by their children.
Can't imagine that years ago.

Well, it just takes one look at MN threads here everyday about how horrible the kids are and how their parents keep excusing them. 'Because she/he's ND, has ASD, ADHD, anxiety' and a thousand of other things so it's OK for them to behave like that. It's the teachers now who are always at fault. Children are incredibly spoilt today and they are brought up as if they are the most important beings in the world - the current approach is that the child must be at the centre of everything and parents are guild-ridden all the time if they don't provide whatever the kid wants and if they are not friends with them. And this current trend of punishment to 'take away their devices...'. Well, you should not have given them these in the first place!

Agree...

Now in my 60's, very rarely go on one now, but we were taught the same thing when on a train with my parents so once old enough to go it alone I still gave up my seat.

Those that think a child shouldn't have to sit on someone's lap, fine to have that opinion, but also need to remember nine times out of ten they are the very one's that won't give up a seat once they're older either and will willing see an elderly/pregnant person left to stand.

Well no because I am talking about in schools. They abuse staff - verbally and physically, their parents are rude and argumentative, they challenge every decision made. I’m not saying the behaviour you describe doesn’t exist, I’m saying it isn’t one demographic of children causing behavioural issues in schools. The extreme behaviour you describe would almost be easier to deal with in schools as it’s more likely to warrant permanent exclusions. I am talking about persistent and exhausting poor behaviour, manners and lack of respect.

They did 20-25 years ago when I was at school. Obv not most kids, but the minority with attitude problems were always like that. I remember it well, 'not FAIR miss I ain't done nothing, why you fucking picking on me!!' and I was at secondary school in the 90's.

@Bringmeahigherlove what challenges are they bringing? Have they tracked down wider family on social media and are smashing up cars, turning up tooled up? Are they attacking police, en masse, when the police turn up to stop them getting off their face and storming shops? Are they attacking tourists and targeting cash machines?
Where about are you?

You would be surprised. Yes these parents and children exist but it’s a far wider issue than that. Some of our most challenging students come from parents with professional careers. They can do no wrong. It isn’t just one demographic.

I work in a historical visitor attraction and we get lots of children in. Some of the behaviour is absolutely appalling and the parents just ignore it. One child attempted to push his elderly grandad down a flight of stairs while mum and dad laughed. We have furniture over 500 years old and I have to intervene when parents allow their children to jump all over it- I'm very polite but the parents and children are absolutely shocked that they're being told no. I dread to think how they behave at school and how will they cope with the world of work?

I don't see gentle parents among those who the OP describes. They are the ones calling ther toddlers cunts and sluts, shouting 'fucking move' and slapping them. Their primary aged children are rarely in school because it means getting up of a morning. They are also kept off so they don't blurt out what's gone on at home. It's usually generational. My colleague had to deliver a positive parenting course, but as I pointed out, thise recommended for the course hadn't got a clue about the basics.

Thankfully yes I was brought up to believe that mothers deserve thinking time, that companionship is a skill, and that humanity doesn't have a monetary price on everything. I also believe in subsidising travel and that's worked out by transport companies and/or governing authorities. According to what's best for society to flourish.

Your mum being an introvert meant she didn't want her child in her lap. Wow.

So you took up a seat that you weren't paying for at the expense of a paying adult standing and you think you've been taught good manners?!

There's just something inherent when you have that kind of attitude it's very me, me, me which I'm sure filter's down to the kids. Your 12 yo isn't more or less entitled, sometimes it's just nice to think of other people instead of automatically thinking of yourself. I've always stood for other people, it's just second nature, like a PP it's just manners. It's very interesting when travelling the world to see how different countries treat their elders, I think having respect for people is a good thing.

The seat thing is such a red herring. My mother is an introvert and needs space and I learnt that on a long journey it is ok for a parent/mother/adult to have a book to read and take up space. Not that parents must act as a living child seat. Guess what, I learnt to play quietly and sit properly as a child, and as an adult I enjoy taking up space on public transport and reading even when entitled people usually men try to bully me out of my space.

That’s an unusually adamant response and very different to my own experience. People who are meaningfully engaged with hope for their future do not behave like this. It isn’t a new phenomena.

The arguments on here about three year olds on laps is batshit. The kids coming out with this stuff and attacking people, doing bombs on L1 and getting barred from Macdonalds aren't pampered etc, they have shit parents. A lot of the worse type of lads are regularly beaten by parents, older siblings, step parents (plural) and didn't stand a chance, thanks to chronic underfunding of all services. Early intervention in primary schools were needed. We were advocating for it back in 2011. Educational standards across Merseyside have always been lower than the rest of the country. Back in the 90's, when it was becoming apparent that my DD had ADHD/Dyslexia, we had a shortage of Ed Psys and in Kent a child would have to be 18 months to two years behind before health kicked in, on Merseyside it was at least four years behind and it hasn't got better. We've lost clinics and outreach services from AlderHey. We've lost SEN schools and alternative educational units. Austerity and the bedroom tax etc caused further damage, but no-one cared. We've got, what many voted for. Since the 80's there's been a denial about the lack of employment across Merseyside (which is why everyone down south now can't afford housing). If you concentrate on one part of the country being a nice place to live, guess what? Everyone wants to live there. I live just outside of Liverpool, but still in Merseyside. We've now got security guards in our Macdonalds and regular police patrols, just for teenagers. Families who need their children on CP plans, have ineffective family support instead. We need higher standards, via well paid teachers. My GC primary school are losing teachers because it's too stressful for the wages. The closing of the children's centers started some of the issues. That's how I found MN, back in 2010, writing research pieces. What we have today was predicted. Unfortunately the teens from good homes often have to mirror the behaviour around them, to not get attacked. I've seen teens forcing good families to flee from Bootle, Norris Green, Page Moss by putting their windows in, smashing up their cars etc, because the lads in the house are trying to do well. Drug grooming gangs were left to do their damage, but then, we've had so many corrupt police officers, there was nowhere to go for community support.

Not enough do obviously.
My DC are still young, so perhaps I will eat my words in time. But IMO children, right up to teens, don't need unsupervised internet access at all, ever. Tech should be downstairs, in the living room only. Access as limited as necessary until they have proven themselves mature enough to self police.
My oldest is 8, some of the stuff his friends have access to is scary. Parents just hand them a phone because it's easier than anything else. His class has already had issues with bullying on whatsapp! What they'll be up to by their teens, God only knows.

It is because people can behave like this and their children can behave like this and nothing happens. You can be a total shit and someone else will still fund your education, your kids, your aggressive dog, your housing, your healthcare and your food.

Gentle parenting.

That's the cause.

I live in the lakes and I’ve witnessed similar, the town I live in has a huge drug problem and I hate going to supermarkets in the evening alone because of the kids congregating outside, they are young but genuinely scary.

My DP was a taxi driver and he had so much trouble with teens, drinking or trying to smoke and take drugs in the car, he had a knife pulled on him and many a time they would try to run off without paying. He went to ask the parents for money on a couple of occasions but they also got aggressive. In the end he was on first name terms with most of the local police after being a victim or if they contacted him to see if a crime suspect had used his taxi.

DP gave it up in the end because he’d had enough of kids of all ages and peoples attitudes towards them. He’d had food smeared everywhere, kids weeing and pooing in the car and parents just getting out without telling him, a kid he was taking to school on a contract job (11 year old boy) spat at him, hit him then jumped out of the moving car and ran off.
It wasn’t just kids but he found they were more difficult to deal with because he was terrified if he stood up to the behaviour false accusations would be made, if he asked younger accompanied children to stop doing things like banging things against the window and to sit down and put a belt on then he’d often get told he had no right to tell the kids what to do by the parents.

My best friend has teens in a secondary school in the lakes and I’m shocked by the stories they tell me. My friend has an attitude mentioned by a pp that she hated school and hated teachers so her kids now don’t show them any respect. I think the teachers have just given up on them now because my friend argues with any punishment and her kids are going to be the ones who suffer when they leave school with no qualifications.
My friend tries too hard to be a friend rather then a mum and laughs about behaviour most parents would be punishing and so with her kids it definitely started at home.

Didn’t say me. This is about giving up seats to older/disabled people. (And to be honest you have no idea if I’m disabled or not)

But here you go @Lostcat , this proves my point, a 12 year old is more entitled to a seat than anyone else. They will never have been told to stand for anyone less able because they are just as entitled to it as anyone else.

When I was at school if you misbehaved you'd be dreading going home because you knew you'd be in trouble. It was unusual if your parents didn't back up the teachers.

There's a lot of neglect going on. Tooth brushing, diet, toilet training, lack of discipline, unrestricted access to the internet.

Instead of being out in the fresh air and getting exercise, children are cooped up in their rooms on tech watching God knows what. No wonder they all seem to have anxiety.