Tariffs: Why Is It Fine When Others Use Them, But Not the US?

Well, TDS is really one sided and it’s those who think he can do no wrong that suffer from it. It’s funny the projection folks with TDS do that only comes back to them. He is popular amongst the weak minded folks. That’s you.

but I agree Tariffs are not good.

Some of the richest businessmen in the world are trying to colonise space, you think this would be beyond their realms of possibility if it meant avoiding crippling tarrifs?

Oh, babe.

The only way America can cut say, Taiwan out of the supply chain is to force its own people to accept worse wages and working conditions, to do so.

Not so. The alternative way of cutting e.g. Taiwan out of the US supply chain is to put tariffs on Taiwanese products. So that on the supermarket shelf the Taiwanese and US-made products are side-by-side at the same price, or the US product will actually be cheaper than the Taiwanese.
Then people buy the US products, so US manufacturing gets the sales without any worsening of wages and working conditions.

Where the world has gone wrong in recent decades is to view people primarily as "consumers" not as "workers".

China harvests organs from political prisoners, their police force is disgustingly bribed to the point where they will turn a blind eye to children being kidnapped for the sex and organ trade, vulnerable people die on the streets because the government doesn't care, exploits children in sweatshops and Africans in precious metal mines, cause countless extinction of endangered animals all around the world because of the import of animal parts but you're cheering them on to "stand up to him" because le orange man bad, woof.

£40 for jeans seems very low priced if all the fabric production (cotton production, weaving, dyeing) & sewing was done on a living wage. The price will be higher still if basic environmental standards are applied. I'd assume those Welsh jeans use cotton produced in an ethical & environmentally sound manner, and whilst there must be profit it's probably not as much as you'd think.

I would guess there is a huge premium built into that price, as these are obviously a brand aiming at a wealthy market.

If ALL jeans available in the UK were either made in the UK by well-paid workers, or subject to tariffs if imported, I would guess the lowest price 'bargain' jeans might be about £40, but they would be better quality than Primark and similar shops currently sell.

A quick Google search tells mean jeans in 1970 (before globalised production) cost $10 to $30, which is only £8 to £25 approx. So £40 is a conservative estimate.

Because he's the devil incarnate, apparently. I've also heard lots of people bemoaning the UK's 10% but hardly commenting on the fact that's half of the 20% he's slapped on Europe.

@EuclidianGeometryFan yes they are a premium product but mainly because there is little point in making non premium clothing in the UK. Our comparative advantage in that market is highly skilled workers and artisan skills, the advantage countrie slike Cambodia have is vast volumes of cheap partially skilled labour you need for cheap fast fashion.

Rich, highly skilled countries pretty much always become net importers of manufacturered goods.

Trump will reduce cheap Chinese imports that are damaging the environment and causing global warming. Causing global warming is bad. Trump is good.

Reducing reliance on sweatshop labour is also good, but anyone pretending that Trump is doing this sort of thing to help reduce global warming or close sweatshops is on a hiding to nothing.

At first the people have to tolerate the higher prices, or go without.

But eventually the manufacturing jobs come back on-shore, then the people get better pay and can afford the higher prices.

That is the theory.

I think there are two extremes.

Globalist, where global trading is good. Because Americans get loads of cheap stuff off the backs of the Chinese, who work themselves out of poverty in the process, benefiting both parties. The hope is if China achieve superpower status, the country will be all nice and democratic and friendly.

Isolationist, where global trading is bad, because you are effectively trading your future security for piles of cheap stuff now, by enabling China to establish itself as a long term global competitor.

So the first is a short term view, and what might be expected as a result of capitalism (which tends to have no long term view and just wants to maximise profit in the short term) whereas the second is a long term position. You can throw environmentalism into the mix as well, which largely comes out on the isolationist side (more expensive less stuff is less bad for the environment, especially since it is not shipped halfway around the world in the process).

The Globalists generally pretend to be politically left wing/liberal but are in fact anything but). I am not sure what the isolationists are. Both sides seem pretty much out for themselves to me but as ever hide under a veneer of social acceptability.

Objective interpretation is difficult, because people still very much seem to want to attach themselves to either being left wing or right wing, while espousing policies that are in fact anything but IMO.

This comment highlights the issue: if you're already struggling with the CoL you certainly won't shell out 10x the current price for a pair of jeans made locally, however much you want to support Welsh workers. If that applies to all everyday items like toasters, ovens, iPhones or hoovers, the cost of running a household with modern appliances will only remain a preserve of the rich. Now what? someone will need to look after the home the old-fashioned way, right? sewing, cooking, dishwashing etc. guess who will be doing that? Women of course. Now let's keep thinking a little further on - because those MAGA types are also anti immigration and natalist, they'll incentivise women to have more babies and bar them from working (all part of the same rationale). So, if we take the reasoning to the bitter end, we end up with a small rich elite that benefits from eye-wateringly expensive mod cons and the rest of the masses, back to the 19thc with us.
I don't think for a moment that the above will ACTUALLY happen, but it is the kind of absurd implications that those guys think we'll roll over and contemplate without a fight. At least, let's show them how fucking stupid it is to try and roll back two centuries of progress.

Tariffs are neither good nor bad but somewhere in between. A way of rebalancing economic systems. Applying higher ones will probably be bad for the US in the short term and good in the long term IMO. One interesting thing to see will be how much of them the Democrats reverse if they manage to get back in at the next election. My prediction ? Zero. Because once Trump has taken the pain implementing them, there will be no sense going back.

The problem is in a world of grey, black and white thinking will only ever take you down a path leading to paradoxes.

For example, Trump is bad. Trump will reduce cheap Chinese imports that are damaging the environment and causing global warming. Causing global warming is bad. Trump is good.

This sort of stuff fries the brains of people with TDS who just generally want to avoid thought beyond the superficial that leads to these paradoxes and hurl insults.

@StandFirmI’m not sure about your scenario. The one factor that someone (inadvertently) highlighted in pp is automation. If that does ramp up the cost of labour difference becomes less pronounced. We don’t really want to rely on cheap labour, and sometimes posts on here will say that about Temu etc, but don’t want to pay more either, automation could help there.

There’s still a benefit to on shoring in that instance as you get profit / taxes rather than it going o/s.

As for continuing as we are with high consumption and increasing reliance I think @GasPanic made some good points. We’re in a kind of party of consumption which politicians don’t want to interrupt, but long term where is China and others v the west

I buy my jeans from a British company. They are made in Wales by decently paid, highly skilled workers in a unionised work force.

They cost between £210 and £300 a pair.

But you have to have production capabilities already up and running locally to do that, don't you? How does it work in the meantime?

What’s the other route? Higher consumption, lower taxes as off shoring production, increasing reliance on China and Asia whilst they build military power?

Do people want more production security or very little?

This comment highlights the issue: if you're already struggling with the CoL you certainly won't shell out 10x the current price for a pair of jeans made locally, however much you want to support Welsh workers. If that applies to all everyday items like toasters, ovens, iPhones or hoovers, the cost of running a household with modern appliances will only remain a preserve of the rich. Now what? someone will need to look after the home the old-fashioned way, right? sewing, cooking, dishwashing etc. guess who will be doing that? Women of course. Now let's keep thinking a little further on - because those MAGA types are also anti immigration and natalist, they'll incentivise women to have more babies and bar them from working (all part of the same rationale). So, if we take the reasoning to the bitter end, we end up with a small rich elite that benefits from eye-wateringly expensive mod cons and the rest of the masses, back to the 19thc with us.
I don't think for a moment that the above will ACTUALLY happen, but it is the kind of absurd implications that those guys think we'll roll over and contemplate without a fight. At least, let's show them how fucking stupid it is to try and roll back two centuries of progress.