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A casual friend has just told me she's standing as a Reform candidate

417 replies

Mumblechum0 · 05/04/2025 15:25

And I have no clue how to respond.

I've always liked her, we're not close, ie don't do anything just the two of us, but are often in the same group at parties, book group, joint birthday bashes etc.

She's very posh, professional job, husband's a head fund manager (he walks round in a tweed cap and goes shooting on his family estate etc etc...just setting the scene, she's well educated etc.)

Anyway, she messaged me yesterday to say that she wanted me to know in advance that she's standing as a Reform candidate in our local elections; she didn't ask for my support, but didn't want me to just see her face on a leaflet through the door.

I'm married to a black man, have a mixed race son.

I haven't responded yet, as I don't know whether it's best to just ignore, or to say thanks for letting me know, or actually to say I'm quite horrified (which is my actual reaction).

Any ideas?

OP posts:
Goldenbear · 06/04/2025 16:18

Maitri108 · 06/04/2025 16:03

It's what happens when 'facts' is a dirty word and no source can be trusted. This is what happened during the run up to Brexit.

Apparently Twitter is where the truth is. Twitter is the 'raw data'.

I also challenged someone to provide their reputable and trusted sources, they couldn't.

Instead you get told to do the work for them and find evidence to back up their spurious claims.

I was supposed to quote this post with my post above.

Goldenbear · 06/04/2025 16:17

Absolutely this! This is what has happened to politics in the U.S. and is being imported here by Reform, it is all cultural wars and no interest in debating substantive issues with actual facts, people have lost their passion for the politics of public administration and policy, they just want to feverishly spout hate and blame certain groups of people for all societies' wrongs!

Maitri108 · 06/04/2025 16:17

2dogsandabudgie · 06/04/2025 16:10

Have I missed something in the news recently? Who are the Reform candidates who are talking about shooting people?

https://www.itv.com/news/2024-06-27/reform-campaigner-called-for-channel-migrants-to-be-used-as-target-practice

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 06/04/2025 16:15

Maitri108 · 06/04/2025 16:11

I'm not sure how people can shamelessly say that it's just a discussion. We had anti Muslim riots last year - just a calm debate where a building was set alight with people inside.

It's amazing what people can justify to themselves, isn't it?

Maitri108 · 06/04/2025 16:11

Yorkshirelass04 · 06/04/2025 16:05

@Maitri108I agree with every word.

Dressing up critique of Muslims as a neutral exercise is very devious. 'Oh we are just asking questions'.

The Reform lot were palpably disappointed that the Southport murderer wasn't Muslim, despite all the rumours from the likes of Katie Hopkins online.

I'm not sure how people can shamelessly say that it's just a discussion. We had anti Muslim riots last year - just a calm debate where a building was set alight with people inside.

2dogsandabudgie · 06/04/2025 16:10

Maitri108 · 06/04/2025 15:59

@Lucky People aren't suggesting that there's a subset of Reform voters that are racist. They're suggesting that Reform voters are primarily racist. I haven't met any Reform voters that take their manifesto seriously, let alone read it.

You talk of 'cultural preservation', yet the vast majority of people in the UK are white British. How can a tiny minority erase a whole country's culture?

It's not bigoted to criticise religion, it's not bigoted to question certain cultural mores and find them incompatible with Western values.

However that's not what people are doing. They want a blanket ban on Muslims coming into the country and for Muslims to be 'sent home'.

You seem to have been asleep. You say

The argument isn’t that all Muslims are dangerous

Yes,the argument very much is all Muslims are dangerous. Muslim grooming gangs, Muslim sex offenders, Muslims hanging around near schools, Muslims as terrorists, Muslims are extremists, Muslims frightening the locals by hanging around a shopping centre, Muslim men are a danger to women...

You're acting as though the discussion around Islam is rational and balanced, it's not. Reform candidates are talking about shooting people, that's not rational.

Have I missed something in the news recently? Who are the Reform candidates who are talking about shooting people?

Yorkshirelass04 · 06/04/2025 16:05

@Maitri108I agree with every word.

Dressing up critique of Muslims as a neutral exercise is very devious. 'Oh we are just asking questions'.

The Reform lot were palpably disappointed that the Southport murderer wasn't Muslim, despite all the rumours from the likes of Katie Hopkins online.

Maitri108 · 06/04/2025 16:03

JHound · 06/04/2025 15:56

Ha ha ha ha! Oh yes “Google it”. That happens here a lot. I once “Googled it” and all the data contradicted their point. When I asked for their source apparently there were “loads of different sources I had to read” but they could not provide a link to any….

It's what happens when 'facts' is a dirty word and no source can be trusted. This is what happened during the run up to Brexit.

Apparently Twitter is where the truth is. Twitter is the 'raw data'.

I also challenged someone to provide their reputable and trusted sources, they couldn't.

Instead you get told to do the work for them and find evidence to back up their spurious claims.

Yorkshirelass04 · 06/04/2025 16:01

@Licky

Where is your appraisal of what each religion brings to the UK, or the threats that they might represent? Why the focus on Muslims and not Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists, Jehovas Witnesses etc. Who gets to decide which of these are problematic or not.

Whilst I agree that it shouldn't be considered xenophobic to be proud of our British heritage, it only works if you can specify what it is that makes us British. Is it white Christian? If it's not what is it, and what does it specifically exclude?

Maitri108 · 06/04/2025 15:59

@Lucky People aren't suggesting that there's a subset of Reform voters that are racist. They're suggesting that Reform voters are primarily racist. I haven't met any Reform voters that take their manifesto seriously, let alone read it.

You talk of 'cultural preservation', yet the vast majority of people in the UK are white British. How can a tiny minority erase a whole country's culture?

It's not bigoted to criticise religion, it's not bigoted to question certain cultural mores and find them incompatible with Western values.

However that's not what people are doing. They want a blanket ban on Muslims coming into the country and for Muslims to be 'sent home'.

You seem to have been asleep. You say

The argument isn’t that all Muslims are dangerous

Yes,the argument very much is all Muslims are dangerous. Muslim grooming gangs, Muslim sex offenders, Muslims hanging around near schools, Muslims as terrorists, Muslims are extremists, Muslims frightening the locals by hanging around a shopping centre, Muslim men are a danger to women...

You're acting as though the discussion around Islam is rational and balanced, it's not. Reform candidates are talking about shooting people, that's not rational.

JHound · 06/04/2025 15:56

Maitri108 · 06/04/2025 15:33

@JHound

I could post some examples of what I'm talking about but it would probably get deleted. There's talk of a race war and weapons.

When you challenge them you get told you're intolerant, don't want a discussion, are 'far left' and they're just exercising their right to free speech.

A response to a request for evidence is "Google it." If you provide evidence, you're told it's biased and 'far left'. I'm sure Communists are basking in their sudden notoriety.

Ha ha ha ha! Oh yes “Google it”. That happens here a lot. I once “Googled it” and all the data contradicted their point. When I asked for their source apparently there were “loads of different sources I had to read” but they could not provide a link to any….

2dogsandabudgie · 06/04/2025 15:55

Maitri108 · 06/04/2025 15:33

@JHound

I could post some examples of what I'm talking about but it would probably get deleted. There's talk of a race war and weapons.

When you challenge them you get told you're intolerant, don't want a discussion, are 'far left' and they're just exercising their right to free speech.

A response to a request for evidence is "Google it." If you provide evidence, you're told it's biased and 'far left'. I'm sure Communists are basking in their sudden notoriety.

Who's talking about there being a race war and weapons?

Licky · 06/04/2025 15:36

As usual, there's a great deal of dishonesty on both sides of the debate.

To begin with, it's important to acknowledge that while no one in the Reform Party openly admits to being racist, racism is a persistent issue across society as a whole. Given this reality, it's statistically and logically reasonable to assume that some individuals within the Reform Party harbor racist views. Pretending otherwise is disingenuous. Moreover, it’s not implausible that, for a subset of members or supporters, racial animus plays a stronger role in their political stance than genuine policy concerns. Denying this possibility only undermines efforts at honest discourse.

On the other hand, there is a recurring problem where Islam is unfairly equated with being "brown" or ethnically non-white. This is both factually incorrect and socially damaging. Islam is a religion, not a race. As PPs have pointed out, there are Albanian Muslims, Syrian Muslims, Iraqi Muslims, Pakistani Muslims—spanning a wide spectrum of ethnic backgrounds, languages, and skin tones. Reducing Islam to a racial identity erases this diversity and distorts the conversation.

Additionally, criticizing Islam as a belief system should not be immediately labeled as bigotry. Just as it is valid to critique or reject the tenets of Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Sikhism, or any other religion, so too is it legitimate to question or challenge Islamic doctrines or practices. Freedom of thought and belief must also include the freedom to critique ideas, including religious ones.

Another double standard that deserves attention concerns cultural preservation. When minority groups express pride in their heritage and advocate for preserving their cultural traditions, this is generally celebrated as a healthy expression of identity. However, when white individuals express concern about cultural change—particularly in the context of large-scale immigration or rapid demographic shifts—they are often dismissed as backward, xenophobic, or racist. This inconsistency is problematic. There is nothing inherently wrong with wanting to preserve one's culture, traditions, and sense of community—regardless of racial background. Cultural continuity and identity matter to many people, and concerns about their erosion shouldn't automatically be pathologized just because they come from members of a majority group.

In short, honest debate requires us to recognize complexity, reject lazy generalizations, and apply principles evenly across the board. Otherwise, we're just talking past one another and entrenching division.

Another common dishonesty in these discussions is the frequent use of the “not all Muslims are…” argument. This line of reasoning typically points out that the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful, kind, and law-abiding—which is undoubtedly true. However, this argument often serves to shut down legitimate criticism or inquiry. And it’s particularly hypocritical when you compare it to how similar defenses are treated in other contexts.

For example, on Mumsnet and across social media, when someone points out that most men are not predators or rapists, that person is quickly dismissed with the familiar “Oh, it’s the ‘not all menz’ argument again,” often followed by accusations of deflection or ignoring women’s lived experiences. In those cases, generalizations about men are not only tolerated but often encouraged as part of a broader conversation about systemic issues.

The same goes for terms like “toxic masculinity.” Most people would agree that the majority of masculine men are not abusive or misogynistic, and yet the concept of toxic masculinity is widely accepted in public discourse. It is used to highlight recurring patterns of harmful behavior that emerge within a particular cultural or gender context. No one insists we first preface every discussion with “not all masculine men” before addressing those problems.

So, why is Islam treated differently? Why is it considered offensive or even bigoted to point out patterns of extremism, intolerance, or violence that have emerged repeatedly in association with certain interpretations of Islam? The argument isn’t that all Muslims are dangerous—just as it’s not argued that all men are abusers or all white people are racists. The issue is whether a particular ideology or culture has tendencies or doctrines that routinely give rise to harmful outcomes. And in the case of Islam—especially in its more conservative or fundamentalist expressions—it is intellectually dishonest to pretend this isn’t the case.

The conversation should not be about assigning collective guilt to individuals who are innocent. It should be about recognizing patterns, identifying where cultural or ideological influences are leading to consistent harm, and having the courage to confront those influences honestly. Blanket denial in the name of tolerance doesn’t promote social harmony—it undermines truth and accountability.

Maitri108 · 06/04/2025 15:33

@JHound

I could post some examples of what I'm talking about but it would probably get deleted. There's talk of a race war and weapons.

When you challenge them you get told you're intolerant, don't want a discussion, are 'far left' and they're just exercising their right to free speech.

A response to a request for evidence is "Google it." If you provide evidence, you're told it's biased and 'far left'. I'm sure Communists are basking in their sudden notoriety.

JHound · 06/04/2025 15:25

Maitri108 · 06/04/2025 13:58

We have a different experience of social media and Reform supporters. What I've seen is 'remigration now', 'usual suspects', deport foreigners and keep Britain white posts.

The Reform supporters are anti immigration, anti Muslim and racist. They talk of the UK being invaded and taken over.

It doesn't matter what the skin colour of Syrians is. According to some, they come from a shit hole and are trying to turn the UK into the 'third world.'

On the campaign trail, one Reform candidate was talking about shooting at the boats from the shore.

Same. Every single Reform voter I come across online who insists “Reform are not racist” rapidly progresses into xenophobic and racist posts, a lot of ignorance (especially on Islam as a faith and muslims as a people) and posting “facts” which have no source and when you post data that contradicts their claims they insist you are “silencing debate”.

I am sure racists exist in every single political party but Reform seems to be especially bad. I just would prefer not to have in my circle a Reform supporter but I doubt I would.

JHound · 06/04/2025 15:22

Contentment1628 · 06/04/2025 07:53

I sincerely hope your group of friends are not in part responsible for this awful government we are currently having to suffer. If so you must all be ashamed of yourselves.

Ok.

ilovesooty · 06/04/2025 14:56

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 06/04/2025 14:31

I'm so tired of all the Reform apologists trying to argue that they aren't racist. We know who Nigel Farage is and what he stands for, and we know what Reform is all about.

If you hold racist beliefs, at least have the courage to stand up and say so.

My local Next Door page has a large contingent of Reform supporters. It's all "illegals" "usual suspects" "5* hotels" "threatening British culture" "not being allowed to celebrate Christmas"... yet they're not racist. If you ask them what the appeal of Reform is, they can't really tell you.

shortsaint · 06/04/2025 14:42

Given her husband’s a hedge fund manager (making assumptions here, but let’s face it she’s sitting pretty) she’s likely a right wing Tory - economically driven? Perhaps have a chat with her why she likes their policies next time you see her? Be prepared to ask questions and have some responses from your pov. Does it concern you about their response to race and immigration etc?

Maitri108 · 06/04/2025 14:36

User46576 · 06/04/2025 14:19

Islam is a religion and ideology though rather than a racial group. There are also a lot of violent Islamist extremist groups in the uk and internationally who are very dangerous to the vast majority of British people (including most Muslims) and should rightly be criticised.

Terrorists and extremists should be criticised obviously. For example, everyone is talking about Adolescence and incels which are classed as extremists.

We have a problem with far right extremists, look at the riots last year and people trying to set light to an occupied building.

However, the problem is when you tar everyone with the same brush and forget the human. The majority of Muslims in this country are getting on with their lives. They work, pray, care for their families and don't have extremist views. They're not an infestation.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 06/04/2025 14:31

I'm so tired of all the Reform apologists trying to argue that they aren't racist. We know who Nigel Farage is and what he stands for, and we know what Reform is all about.

If you hold racist beliefs, at least have the courage to stand up and say so.

Pclou45 · 06/04/2025 14:25

MathsMum3 · 05/04/2025 16:10

She may not be racist but she's aligned herself with a party that is clearly racist. That would enough for me. I would block her (and I've never blocked anyone on any platform ever!), and hopefully she's smart enough to get the message.

This. If she’s not a racist, she’s picked the wrong team. Or worse, she might be one of those “I didn’t mean YOU of course” racists who make exceptions for people they know or like, thereby adding hypocrisy to their already dubious views.

ToWhitToWhoo · 06/04/2025 14:24

User46576 · 06/04/2025 14:21

Don’t be silly

You don't think that Trump and Vance have proved themselves to be utterly evil?
Not to mention Kennedy and his monstrous anti-vaccination views?

Yorkshirelass04 · 06/04/2025 14:23

@Maitri108Agree. They want a version of the UK that has never existed. Just 'white people', Christians and no immigration.

Unless we do what Trump is doing (pretending to put Americans first but doing anything but).

Remember Farage was all over Musk until he got spectacularly dumped on twitter.

Being Reform / Farage is not a good look right now.

Spandaupants · 06/04/2025 14:22

Mumblechum0 · 05/04/2025 15:25

And I have no clue how to respond.

I've always liked her, we're not close, ie don't do anything just the two of us, but are often in the same group at parties, book group, joint birthday bashes etc.

She's very posh, professional job, husband's a head fund manager (he walks round in a tweed cap and goes shooting on his family estate etc etc...just setting the scene, she's well educated etc.)

Anyway, she messaged me yesterday to say that she wanted me to know in advance that she's standing as a Reform candidate in our local elections; she didn't ask for my support, but didn't want me to just see her face on a leaflet through the door.

I'm married to a black man, have a mixed race son.

I haven't responded yet, as I don't know whether it's best to just ignore, or to say thanks for letting me know, or actually to say I'm quite horrified (which is my actual reaction).

Any ideas?

It’s not worth any more of your energy . She’s made up her mind regardless of her friends. Just end the relationship as you’re not particularly close anyway