Fed up of reading threads asking how they can get out of paying care home fees.

Most important point in the whole thread.

IMO we also need to allow nature to take its course when someone has advanced dementia and has a very poor quality of life. As in, treat illnesses palliatively and make them comfortable rather than with active treatment such as antibiotics. I drive past a local nursing home every day and there's frequently an ambulance outside. Patients in their 80s and 90s with advanced dementia should not be lining up at A&E in the back of ambulances. They just shouldn't. People are being kept alive artificially and it's causing immense suffering for them and their families - never even mind the cost.

It was like this when I was a junior doctor on the geriatrics wards 20 years ago, and nothing has changed, because we as a society are too scared to have a proper conversation about death, and when the time is right to let someone die.

The former owner of our house lived here independently until her death at 87. She died in an accident, which her increasing frailty and unsteadiness probably contributed to. But would it honestly have been better for her to have gone to a care home and been kept alive, safe but miserable for another decade?

The ratios are far from 1 to 1 though. Each resident doesn't get their own 24/7 carer, in fact they're left sitting for hours staring into space with no meaningful interaction with anyone (and in their own wee, quite often). And they don't get the equivalent of a flat or anything, they get one, very small room and only shared toilets. So they're not paying for high end accommodation or food.

If you look at the accounts of many care home chains there are dividends paid to shareholders (in the millions sometimes) and sometimes the private equity companies involved get into debt and vast fees are spent on servicing debt rather than providing care, which some say is a way of moving money around - i.e. the people charging high interest on loans are getting all the money funnelled to them. This is a bit of an old report but outlines some of the issues. Care homes: Following the money trail - BBC News

We need more really good investigative journalists looking into this.

care home. UK say that the average Nursing home (not care home) costs £1,410 per week.
That fortune equates to £201.43 per day - for 24/7 care, roof over your head, warm, food, lighting etc etc. = £8.39 per hour.
Minimum wage for 18 - 20 year old = £10.0 per hour
For over 21 year old - £12.21 per hour

Life is not fair, and never has been.
It starts at birth with the family you are born into and the country where you are born.

I would rather be dead than go into a home- I feel really strongly about this but not sure how I can make it reality if that makes sense

Most important point in the whole thread.

IMO we also need to allow nature to take its course when someone has advanced dementia and has a very poor quality of life. As in, treat illnesses palliatively and make them comfortable rather than with active treatment such as antibiotics. I drive past a local nursing home every day and there's frequently an ambulance outside. Patients in their 80s and 90s with advanced dementia should not be lining up at A&E in the back of ambulances. They just shouldn't. People are being kept alive artificially and it's causing immense suffering for them and their families - never even mind the cost.

It was like this when I was a junior doctor on the geriatrics wards 20 years ago, and nothing has changed, because we as a society are too scared to have a proper conversation about death, and when the time is right to let someone die.

The former owner of our house lived here independently until her death at 87. She died in an accident, which her increasing frailty and unsteadiness probably contributed to. But would it honestly have been better for her to have gone to a care home and been kept alive, safe but miserable for another decade?

Did you have Lasting Power of Attorney for health for your DM @LondonJax ?
If so, and if she'd consented while she still had capacity, it would have been possible to intervene and decline "treatment" on her behalf.
Someone has to be the one to start the conversation about "nature taking its course" and, in my experience, the professionals are very reluctant to be the ones who raise it for fear of being accused of all sorts of horrors.
Sorry for your loss.

Such a shame that the £80k or so limit couldn't get through Parliament a few years ago. It would have protected at least some of peoples' inheritances, but also reduced the state's liability. It would have meant that fewer people would have taken evasive action to pay nothing, i.e. change ownership of the house or transfer other assets to children, long before care may be needed, meaning the state ends up paying it all. Whereas with a limit like £80k, fewer people would take evasive action - more would just accept it, and pay it, if the time came, safe in the comfortable knowledge that the family would still inherit at least something, rather than risk inheriting nothing.

I've just had a meeting with a family who transferred the mother's house into the joint names of the 3 children around 20 years ago, with the prime intention of avoiding having to use the value of the house to pay care home costs. It's worked - mother is now in a care home, paid by the council, and the 3 children have a house to sell! Because it was transferred so long ago, when there was clearly no "foreseeable" event likely to require a care home, it's not counted when the council evaluated her finances. The 3 children openly admitted had the £80k limit been in place, their mother probably wouldn't have transferred the house to them.

I agree with this @AlienFeels. I've already mentioned my mum died with dementia. She spent her last few weeks in a hospital bed with a chest infection being treated with antibiotics at the age of 90. She was in a nice care home, well fed, well looked after and we all went to see her weekly at various times. But, she didn't know who we were, was starting to get fearful and wasn't going to get better. The antibiotics just prolonged the inevitable. And, rather than dying in her nice room with all the normal day to day noises, she died on a hospital ward where (lovely though the staff were) no-one knew her and 'hospital noises' went on hour after hour.

MIL is paying a horrific amount for care at home atm. She is probably entitled to more free care on her pathway, but it is impossible to get through to the powers that be. We pay a fuckton in tax and then will again when she passes in inheritance tax.
It's purely profit making as the carer will not be receving anything like MIL pays the agency.

How do you work that out?

Im NMW , 20 hrs, £250 - take home £225 - 10% - and that's my pension payments - I don't pay NI or Tax. Oh I also don't claim any benefits

I cant afford luxury so Im not spending and therefore paying VAT on everything. I buy food in its natural state - vat free, don't eat out unless its a real treat, and take aways are 2 or 3 a year

Clothes are second hand - no vat

The more you spend, the more taxes you pay, don't have it to spend - you pay less in tax

The rich are paying much more then me on tax that's for sure

Mum lives here with us ( self contained ) - aged 86 she's frail, she cant make her bed, do her housework, can no longer cook etc, she's been with us the past 20 years, and SDad was here as well until he died - he was disabled hence them moving in quite young - she needed help with him. MIL was cared for in her own home by her daughters ( she had three so they were able to do turn about )

With the savings mum has made by living here she has paid for a care home annuity - in case she needs it. Might be the case that she's been paying out and it won't be needed ,

DH is also becoming disabled - losing the use of his hands due to dupuytrens.

If mother did get Alzheimers - which looks increasingly unlikely due to her age then yes a care home would be required, but for just getting old, she will be fine here as long as I stay fit

Its not easy having your parents living in the same home as yourself, its something that the whole family has to get on board with and a home that can accommodate without living on top of each other - mum has her own living room, bedroom , bathroom on the ground floor and you do give up loads ( Im 60 and living as an 80 year old )

My wee sister had her FIL in a purpose built annexe to her house when the MIL died and he did get Alzheimers , he was in a gated community prior to that , but they could no longer cope. He went into care last summer. Its costing my sister a fortune in top up fees but the family could no longer cope at home

Bottom line is that care homes prices are extortionate. Nobody minds paying but how can they justify the cost. It's certainly not going on staff wages and some care homes don't deserve the title. The worst thing is you can strive to pay your mortgage off for your home then to be taken for fees. Somebody else might never never worked a day, spent a life on benefits gets it all paid for. There's a weird disconnect there.

Most important point in the whole thread.

IMO we also need to allow nature to take its course when someone has advanced dementia and has a very poor quality of life. As in, treat illnesses palliatively and make them comfortable rather than with active treatment such as antibiotics. I drive past a local nursing home every day and there's frequently an ambulance outside. Patients in their 80s and 90s with advanced dementia should not be lining up at A&E in the back of ambulances. They just shouldn't. People are being kept alive artificially and it's causing immense suffering for them and their families - never even mind the cost.

It was like this when I was a junior doctor on the geriatrics wards 20 years ago, and nothing has changed, because we as a society are too scared to have a proper conversation about death, and when the time is right to let someone die.

The former owner of our house lived here independently until her death at 87. She died in an accident, which her increasing frailty and unsteadiness probably contributed to. But would it honestly have been better for her to have gone to a care home and been kept alive, safe but miserable for another decade?

Unfortunately, the nursing home my DF is in seems to be full of very elderly people who are physically fit - many were very sporty and led healthy lives - but now they are experiencing the lingering death of dementia.

I'm currently in my late 50s and have decided that I'll be happy to go anytime between 78 and 80 years old. The trick is to top yourself just before you get to that point.

By topping myself when it gets to that point.

I know this might sound outlandish but the only sure fire way of getting out of paying for a care home is to keep yourself well.

Don’t eat or drink to excess, don’t smoke. Keep working, keep learning, keep friends Exercise every day. Go outside. Go vegetarian at least. Vegan if possible and eat as many fruits and vegetables each day as possible and find something funny to have a laugh about each day. Even if it is how pathetic your life has become.
I’ve had times where I have found myself so broke that I started looking for coins on the pavement. Friend saw me and asked what I was doing and when I told her I started to laugh then she started to laugh because it was just so funny and pathetic at the same time.