Fed up of reading threads asking how they can get out of paying care home fees.

Totally agree. There comes a point when dementia patients cannot be cared for at home.
My Aunt wasn't a violent person in her normal life, she was a very gentle caring soul.

She also became a night wanderer. The police brought her home a few times.
Uncle started removing the key to keep her in.
She was battering the door with a broom to get out. He was scared she'd batter him so stayed upstairs. Neighbours called the police, who battered the door in. Trying to understand what the commotion was about.
The final decision was made after she fell and hospital decided it wasn't safe to return her home.

I know another couple of dementia patients whose move to a home was because of a fall , hospital stay and a decision they couldn't return home.

There was also the case of a dementia man recently killed his DW. Went to a neighbour as said there was a body in the kitchen. He didn't know it was his wife.

Well really that’s a matter for us. The fact you don’t find it funny is irrelevant.

Not the sort of thing I find funny to joke about. I am not sure your children will appreciate it either.

It said on the telly the other day that whilst 25% of people will end up needing help with some tasks in their old age ... few will need a care home. I think that there are fewer than 450,000 places in the UK. It creates a very disproportionate amount of indignation considering how few of us will end up in one.

If you really mean this then you need to find out a lot more about it because it’s not that simple

I want my elderly relatives to enjoy the money they’ve earned not have it stuck in an expensive house they don’t need and then if they’re unlucky it all going to fund their ‘care’ if they get dementia.

Equally, being able to create and maintain assets is how people get rich. The people who already have assets (many in trusts 100s of years old) in this country give not two shits that Mrs Smith’s entire life savings have been given to a rich care home owner, they will be delighted in fact. The very rich do not want you to have any assets, they want you spending every penny you earn because money is power and they want to keep it all to themselves. I know people on here love it that the ‘rich’ horrible landlords and horrible private school parents and horrible property owners and horrible high earners get fucked over again and again but look at who wins. Benefits don’t go up. The public sector doesn’t get more funding. But shareholder dividends increase, property portfolios grow, rents and mortgages go up even if horrible small landlords are priced out.

I wish people would look up properly and see who is shitting on them instead of trying to grab those the rung above or below to blame for all their problems.

I agree, dementia is something that generally cannot be accommodated at home. Many patients need 24 hour care and supervision, they can be impulsive, sometimes aggressive and a danger to themselves and others. It's terribly, terribly sad but specialised residential care is necessary for them.

An aunt had dementia, she wasn't aggressive but she would wander out in the street in her night clothes and didn't know what she was doing. She could have been dangerous with regards to trying to cook, leaving the gas hob on, that sort of thing. She was very elderly and, reluctantly, my cousin (her daughter), put her in a home where she was extremely well looked after and safe. Obviously she was visited often. She did die before too long. One comfort my cousin had was that her mother was not aware of very much, she was in her own world, so not upset at being out of her home. Her granddaughter brought her to my mum's funeral and she was actually very funny and alert at the wake and then asked whose funeral it was. When I told her she was terribly upset and crying, "My little sister, no". It upsets me now to remember that. However she soon forgot and was OK.

My ex-neighbour's mother was a lot younger, developed Alzheimer's when she was about sixty. Dad refused to let her go away and looked after her at home but she was quiet and eventually stayed in bed most of the time.

Another couple of women I know have husbands with dementia who are in homes. They take their husbands out a couple of times a week, sometimes staying at home watching old videos, sometimes going to a cafe they know, and for a drive but it's always difficult when they are taken back. They are only allowed out on the condition that they get back by evening because that seems to be the time when they become aggressive and their wives are in danger.

A friend of ours had Alzheimer's and died in a home aged 68.

Other illnesses can be managed at home with good care, that is what I would want for myself if it happened. Of course I hope it doesn't become necessary but you never know what is around the corner. We looked after my mother in law, with help, and I will always be glad we did. She was as happy as she could be, made the most of her ever shrinking world in her own home. It was also very rewarding for me personally, an opportunity to do something to help someone that doesn't often come around. I learned a lot too during that period, missed her terribly when she had gone.

Sorry to be so negative but when the time comes i'm trotting off to Dignitas. I don't want to end up in a care home to be abused by "care" staff.

Does Dignitas allow you to book your place decades in advance.

If that’s true it’s not typical. It’s better for everyone to get good end of life care if you need it

Oh dear I've had a lot to do with this over the years one way and another.
The care home owners make huge profits. I have a friend who manages a large care home who receives a substantial bonus three times a year.
The staff who are providing the care are poorly paid and are terrified of being blamed hence the calling ambulances when people are unwell .
Paramedics cannot just decide to leave people in the nursing home unless absolutely everything for end of life care is in place.
That relies on care of the elderly consultants and GPs to step up which I think is hard for them to do.
Plus relatives are often extremely insistent on hospital admissions even when totally inappropriate.
Anyone in health care settings are often frightened of repercussions- complaints- losing PIN numbers - having to appear in the coroners court.
Despite this I saw very poorly paid staff move into the home to protect patients during COVID. ( clap clap!)
Another person I know who is the cook in a care home says the managers keep the residents on tiny rations of food to save money.
Really the welfare state is finished and people who are in care homes are cash cows and invisible so are easy fodder.
Look at schools the nhs and other public services we are heading back to Dickensian times.
Many of those people in care homes never have a visitor .

We have as a society not left enough capacity in our lives to ensure they are ok.
Same with childcare farming everything out to others .
All so depressing and sad.

I have met 2 families who own care homes. They are very rich indeed! (Anyone owns their own horses for polo matches around here?)

I will do my very best to never pay a penny of my hard earned money and careful saving so that someone else can pocket it! It will go either way to my family or charity.

It's not possible to care for severe dementia at home without enormous sacrifice and almost inhuman working conditions. If you care at home at best you get a couple of hours of respite per day (if the carers turn up, which doesn't always happen). Dementia patients often go wandering at night, there's a phenomenon called 'sundowning' which is challenging. They are incontinent. It's a round the clock job and those in a care home work shifts so get a break and there's a team - if one person is tapped out someone else can pick up the slack. You don't really get a break ever if you care at home - it's a huge burden for one person (or even two people).

In retrospect our family member was cared for at home for far too long which ultimately put all involved at risk, and is much happier safer and better cared for in a care home.

I know someone who works for a chain of care homes. Lovely, unnecessary designer furnishings & ornaments. And you want to see the cars they drive and the lovely nig house they're having built for themselves. Their fees are extortionate.

FYI those static caravans are often an absolute nightmare when people develop mobility issues - usually have steep steps to to them that are difficult to ramp and internal walls that aren't strong enough to withhold major adaptations. Absolute nightmare to get a hoist/ hospital bed into them as well.

There's also the issue that many rely on the person to have a car to access the community easily from them.

Most also have a clause that you have to leave for 2 months of the year - fine if you are a sprightly 75 year old who can go on a cruise for a month and then stay with family or in a hotel for a few weeks. Less fine as a nursed in bed incontient 88 year old who suddenly needs to find somewhere that can accommodate their hospital bed, hoist, stacks of pads, shower seat etc.

In my experience people in static homes end up in resi care quicker than someone in a bricks and mortar house because their property is becomes unsuitable to meet their needs much earlier.

Precisely our experience
Not as far as prosecution but shipped out of hospital as they needed the bed

Employers NIC
Employers workplace pension
Employers liability insurance
Statutory sick pay
Paid holidays
Potential for liability for redundancy and notice
Training
Uniform
Travelling
Admin costs

All adds up.

And why do you think the agency owners would do it all for nothing? Making a profit is entirely reasonable for the risks, capital, etc.

You really didn't think that the patient should only pay the gross wage of the carer did you???

MIL is in a nursing home with a cocktail of dementias and breathing, and heart, and diabetes, and gut issues. She is doubly incontinent and bedbound. She does not get continuing care paid for by the nhs despite her many nursing needs.

She lives there now, being taken care of around the clock - she doesn't need a house. If her (not very large amount of) money can make her more comfortable as she dies, then so be it. She's not coming out of there alive, and neither I, nor my husband are capable of, or prepared to, provide that level of care.

yes @Cosyblankets dh visited masses of nursing homes. Each one wanted an assessment of mil, and all except one said no. Meanwhile mil was “bed blocking” in hospital and the hospital were threatening legal action against her family unless she was moved.

The poster who suggested that care home fees are saved if you look after your parent yourself…. Well, I challenge you to take on a large aggressive lady who is doubly incontinent and has no sense of night and day. Or who you are or who she is.

Apparently there is, a poster earlier in the thread mentioned it. They said it was costly though.

I'm sure it can give choice.
It didn't in our case.
Our self funding relative was almost an hour away. Luckily we all drive.

We found self funding to be the opposite experience, I’m not ‘kidding myself’, self funding can and does, but of course not always, give pejole more options

Again this is an ideal world.
But what if she develops an illness where you can't physically look after her?
Nobody thinks this will happen to them or their mum or dad.

We would have looked after our relative but their needs were too great. It was not possible.
No one has any idea unless they've experienced it.

i agree.

My Nan had dementia, most of the time was handled at home with carers (she needed more care but funding it was hard). After a hospital stay she was sent to a care home for the last few weeks of her life. It was a very good care home she was at.

However by the end she was bedbound, double incontinent and had no concept of who we were or what was going on.

If an animal was living like this it would be seen as cruel to keep them going in this condition.

In an ideal world this would be true.
But we don't live in an ideal world. These "choice" homes don't just keep beds available for when Mr Self Funder needs a care home. If there is no space there, they go where there is a space. If the choice care home does not cater for their needs they do not go to the choice care home.
We were in this situation. Our relative was a self funder. Not one space locally. Ended up in a care home out of the area to the tune of around 5k a month. No choice as they were discharged from hospital and there was nothing available. Then they had a fall and were in hospital for almost a month. Still had to pay that full 5k. I fully appreciate the staff need paying but how many rooms are sitting empty because someone is in hospital medium to long term? What do you do? Pay 5k for nothing or let the room go and start all over again?
Please don't kid yourself that you get a choice
You don't
They're not going to kick someone out because you have money.
If there's no bed there's no bed.

I’m late 70s, with no intention of going anywhere soon! You don’t know how you’ll feel til you get there. DH is eighty, we can still look after ourselves, cooking, shopping, housework, garden. We have no family members nearby. I go to the leisure centre for exercise classes, and meet others in their seventies, all doing their best to remain independent and active. Neither DH or I want to go into a care home, and as our home isn’t valuable, the money wouldn’t last long.

We never had high wages, holidays were visits to family, DH had a van for years, we couldn’t afford a car as well, but we prioritised buying a house, which is our only asset. Our car is ancient, and we don’t have a great deal in savings. It would feel mightily unfair to have to subsidise care for people who may have earned far more than us, but spent every penny. Fortunately our DC don’t need our money, but it would have been worth our years of frugality to ensure we could leave a little to the DGC to help them get started.