To think that not toilet training your child is borderline neglect?

There can be multiple truths going on at once:

• there probably are more children now with SEN who find training harder.
• there is a general lack of support for parents as health visiting services have been cut.
• there will be parents who aren’t prepared to put the work in.
• The general trend of leaving it later might be making it harder to train ditto better nappy tech.
• people have to have resilience and persistence for the trickier kids and parents might not be in a position to cope with that.

In my own experience, different children can be very different. One of my children basically self-trained at around 2 day and night. I can’t really take any parenting pride in that because other than a few accidents it was incredibly easy. My child who trained closer to 3 was much, much harder. It took a lot of work, patience and frustration. She just didn’t care quite frankly and would rather wet herself than stop a game. I still remember her getting distracted on her 3rd birthday and having an accident in her party dress. I can see how some might have given up and just left it a little later.

I really don't think parents are keeping their kids in nappies due to laziness, it's a lot harder to keep changing nappies. When mine were younger it was just regular reminders and help wiping, now they are older I just prompt them before long journeys although I don't really need to these days.

My youngest is turning 8 this year and still has the odd time when he wets himself at school or in a childcare setting. It's because he's worried about interrupting everyone, we've spoken about it and I've tried to reassure him that he won't get into trouble, that's all I can really do.

Even if no diagnosis, there is usually some evidence that there is something going on, and the fact that the child does not 'get' toilet training may well be one of the signs.

Yeah I think it’s this, I was conflicted about whether we should go with the “wait and see” approach or not. The thing that gave me a shove was my own cultural background which encourages “early” potty training and that she simply would not have been accepted into school. Kids have accidents thats totally normal but the longer you leave it the more engrained an action becomes.

is their support available if people ask for It though? I’m doubting there is much readily available without a long waiting list. I don’t have direct experience of asking for support with this particular issue but I’ve asked for support with other issues for my autistic child and have struggled to get any. Some of the sn groups I am member of on fb people often comment thst they struggle to get referred to continence team when child is very young (even age 4/5) as it’s still considered to be within the “normal” range.

Yup.

my eldest wasn't diagnosed until nearly 11.

I meant 3 at the start of school. I do think it’s a not particularly pleasant and a time consuming process but you may as well get it done.

Night is hormonal, you can’t train it.

I waited until mine was 2yr9 months (tried earlier but it didn’t take), she woke up one day, told me she was a big girl now and needed pants and that was that, no day accidents since.

But you don’t know they have Sn at the time you are trying to train them. My son was diagnosed autistic age 6 and it’s got more obvious as he’s got older but age 3 he appeared very much like a typical 3 year old. It was really difficult to toilet train him, I just thought I was a rubbish mum as everyone else was managing it. The trouble is parents who are neglectful aren’t bothered by campaigns etc that say a child should be doling x y z by time they get to school they carry on not doing what they are doing, but parents that are already struggling with a yet to be diagnosed child and are already finding it difficult and feeling like the worst parent in the world comments like op make them feel a million times worse

Societal attitudes and the idea that you can wait until a child is ready. It's gradually gotten more and more acceptable to see a 2 year old and then a 3 year old in nappies, so people leave them in nappies. Then they sometimes find more resistance with toilet training an older child so it takes even longer. If you've spent 3 or more years of your life going in a "stay dry" nappy, it's going to be a big change to adjust to for a lot of kids.

It's like removing a dummy or bottle, stopping spoon feeding, etc. Often, the longer you leave it, the harder it gets. But parents push it later because they can't face the battle and "one day they'll be ready".

What about those that have tried and tried but it isn’t working yet.

What about those that have undiagnosed SEN?

I think your comment is very judgemental and completely unnecessary. Have you got nothing better to do?!

There is a chunk of children who are not toilet trained by 4 due to medical reasons - my oldest full dry in day by 2.5 abd night by 4, but my youngest, whatever we did, would not poo on the toilet, no developmental issues, but her bottom used to bleed every time she went on the toilet. We recently found out she has coeliac disease, took her off gluten and now it doesn't hurt her to go and she will go on the toilet, but it took 2 years + of going back and forth to gp to get them to figure out the issue. Had I not been such a 'persistent' parent she may still be using nappies for poos now.

However, as a governor of a primary, the number of children in our reception starting not toilet trained was about 15%/ 10 children. Of which around 6 clearly had SEN, but only 2 had actively sought support for their child's needs, other 4 thought their children were 'fine' despite not being toilet trained, unable to put shoes/coat on, delayed speech. Support for this cohort when they were tiny was delayed by covid, which may explain part of this, but it is concerning that some parents are not even seeking support.

As a teacher this topic is at the forefront of undermining the vast diagnoses of neuro-diversity. Today over 30% of children are entering reception not toilet trained Vs 2% in 1995. It's impossible that there has been a 1400% uplift in neuro - divergence so what is it?

Then you get the posters who seem to be able to diagnose SEN (and presumably physical disabilities) by a glance on the playground.

There's usually a load of comments like "there's this 5 year old at school in nappies, no SEN". So fucking ignorant/ annoying.

I think most people are starting too late and then getting resistance from their child and then giving up and pushing it even later. Two year olds resist everything. You have to commit to it, it's something you have to actively teach them since they already know how to do their business, we're just teaching them the polite place to put it.

Start before 2 and it's much easier in my experience, even with a kid with ASD. Obviously not all kids with ASD, but saying SEN makes it harder to potty train isn't always the case. My DD has PDA and resists almost every form of personal care but she was fully potty trained before 2. I know if I'd started later it would never have happened.

Before disposable nappies, almost all kids were trained before 2. And there isn't a huge swathe of adults with toilet issues now. There's no such thing as being "ready" or too young.

Equating absolutely anything parenting related that you don’t like to “gentle parenting” is reeeeeally starting to get tedious and shows that you don’t know what gentle parenting is.

People hear the words “gentle” and “parenting” together and just decide to guess what it means.

In most gentle parenting literature elimination communication is advocated (basically potty training almost from birth) or traditional potty training around 18 months. Not starting potty training by 4 years has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with gentle parenting. Nothing. I’m guess you have misunderstood gentle parenting as “let your kid do what they want when they want” and that isn’t it at all.

Modern nappies/pull ups are more comfortable when wet than cloth ones. It’s also more difficult to potty/toilet train a child when you’re working because you need a concentrated length of time. Mine were all trained in summer, when they played in the garden without nappies, so they began to understand the correlation between the feeling of needing a wee/poo, and it happening. That was easy as a SAHM; not so easy for working parents.

4 year old child with no additional needs not toilet trained is because nobody can be bothered and parent or parents assume somebody else will do it.

4 year old child with additional needs not toilet trained is completely different.

Depends, doesn't it? My son is autistic and was fully potty trained at pretty much 2 years old on the dot. We tried a few weeks before his 2nd birthday and it went really well.

A friend has a son the same age, apparently NT but had huge issues with digestion, allergies, constipation, pretty much from birth until about 3/4 years old. He was on medication and needed a small procedure done at 3.5. Drs recommend holding off potty training until things were settled down. Now at 5 he still has issues around toileting. School have also implied they should investigate possible ND due to extreme behaviour like lashing out, extreme rigidity, sensory issues - things that before now had been kind of lumped in with his physical issues. After all, who wouldn't be angry/sensitive/emotional if they were constantly uncomfortable due to stomach aches/constipation/being hungry but full/having to take medicine or special formula that doesn't taste very good?

I don't actually know anyone in real life who kept their kids in nappies past about 3 purely due to not wanting to train them.

Absolutely agree.

I have twins. DS has clear learning difficulties and diagnosed as autistic aged 3, other diagnoses followed. Now 15 yrs old and still in nappies/pull-ups. Everyone would have known his SEN meant toilet-training was challenging.

His twin sister had difficulties, and was still wetting at night/having day accidents when she was 5. Finally got there but dear god it was a slog. At that age she was believed to be neurotypical.

And then…

At 10 years old she was diagnosed as autistic, and with additional language difficulties that put her below a 6 yr old for comprehension. Very significant SEN. Despite the school supposedly being outstanding for SEN, teachers failed to notice her difficulties for years because she was “quiet”.

If anyone had seen her between the ages of 4-10, you’d never have known she had SEN because she flew under the radar. You’d just have thought I was a crappy parent, despite being seen by the continence service and doing everything I could, to no avail.

This is why judgement matters. For everyone saying “oh, I only mean children with no SEN!” - the point is those children/parents you’re judging for “not trying”? There may be undiagnosed SEN which may not be picked up for YEARS. Especially in girls.

Love it when someone uses ‘gentle parenting’ as a term of insult. It’s the same as people using ‘woke’ as a put down. It simply shouts out ‘I’m just using random words without understanding them because I can’t be bothered”.

As the mother of a SEND kid, who had no issues toilet training, I don’t feel adequately qualified to comment on the toilet training issue.

I literally don’t know anyone who claims that not toilet training their child is a gentle parenting practice?!

My 2 were dry in the day at different ages. Ds got it really quickly and was dry by 21months. Dd was nearly 3. However ds had Terry nappies and the discomfort of being wet probably helps. Nighttime was a few months later.

My own dd took a week off work to focus on toilet training dgc when he was just over 2. Then she informed nursery and they worked with her, I think it was about 3 weeks when he clicked.

It really takes effort on the parents part but even then some dc are quicker than others.

4 is very late unless there are special needs.

Trained my son at 20 months. He was in cloth nappies so we totally followed the old fashioned toilet training style to train before 2. Well at 5.5 he’s still having accidents night & day, particularly bad at school, We have tried every technique going to get him better at it & he doesn’t have obvious SEN either.

Basically at this point I’m clueless & I have no idea what this is about. Did the older generations hide this issue better e.g. there were a tonne of kids that weren’t reliable but it was kept quiet & of course like us they might have been terrible at using the toilet but they carried on with life without using nappies anyway. Obviously some in this situation or maybe even many just decide it’s not worth the hassle and use nappies which probably wasn’t the case historically. We get on with it because we used cloth nappies anyway so I guess at this point we are not going to introduce the convenience of disposables & there’s no point in being nappies as at least they’ll have bits of success each day.

This issue is more complex than the media or stats really show I think.

I'll be sure to tell my cousin she's a neglectful parent and should be ashamed of herself. She already beats herself up about her daughter not being potty trained despite trying over and over but I'll be sure to remind her of her laziness and inadequacies.

Am I also considered neglectful? My 6 year old still wears pull ups at night as he has the odd accident