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Original poster

Continuation of 'Going to Heaven' thread

40 replies

SorcererGaheris · 28/03/2025 11:14

I was taking part in the discussion and bringing a pagan polytheistic perspective (which is very much a minority in these sorts of discussions.)

@Mistyglade

Speaking as a person with religious views here (I am a polytheist pagan occultist) - I personally do appreciate the planet (well, the nice bits, anyway.) A lot of Pagans enormously appreciate the beauty of the physical world, as respect for nature is built into a number of pagan practices (but paganism is so big and diverse that you don't have to venerate nature in order to be a pagan - I'm just pointing out that a love of nature is quite common.)

Regarding blowing things up, I don't think you'll find any reports of pagan polytheists doing any such thing, so...

I don't think the present is less important than the hypothetical afterlife. (I also don't believe in the concept of a Heaven/Hell or places of eternal reward or punishment.)

However, some people do like to think about the concept of a life continuing on from this one and try to formulate their perspective on it. I would argue that there are justifiable reasons to believe in some kind of afterlife; people have personal experiences which they interpret to suggest that there is some continuation of life. There are people who have experiences in which they appear to have contact from deceased spirits (mediums.) Parapsychology research into mediumship has yielded some data which suggests that at least some mediums might be communicating with something/someone beyond this world.

OP posts:
BeaRightThere · 28/03/2025 12:37

Mischance · 28/03/2025 12:34

I am deeply puzzled as to why highly religious people who believe they will go to a better place when they die still swallow pills to keep them alive, want to be resuscitated if they collapse, take active steps to live longer - strange or what?

If heaven were a real thing surely a logical god would stick us all there in the first place and cut out the middle stage ...........

Are you really puzzled by this? I'm not religious but people who are tend to believe that life is god-given and precious. That life is meant to be lived and it has a purpose.

Original poster
SorcererGaheris · 28/03/2025 12:36

thehorsesareallidiots · 28/03/2025 12:31

"Non-scientific forms of evidence" is quite literally an oxymoron.

If there were any credible evidence that there was an afterlife, it would have romped home with the $1m James Randi prize. Mysteriously, the prize is unclaimed.

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@thehorsesareallidiots

In what way is it an oxymoron? Scientific evidence is just one form of evidence, there are other kinds.

In law, for example, personal experience/witness testimony is considered a form of evidence. (A weaker form of evidence, yes, but it is still considered evidence.) Witness testimony is by nature not scientific.

OP posts:
Mischance · 28/03/2025 12:34

I am deeply puzzled as to why highly religious people who believe they will go to a better place when they die still swallow pills to keep them alive, want to be resuscitated if they collapse, take active steps to live longer - strange or what?

If heaven were a real thing surely a logical god would stick us all there in the first place and cut out the middle stage ...........

thehorsesareallidiots · 28/03/2025 12:31

SorcererGaheris · 28/03/2025 12:26

@CocklesandMuscles I would say that what different individuals consider to be credible evidence is subjective.

People define and set their own evidentiary standards. Some people will only take scientific evidence, or certain levels of scientific evidence. Other people will include non-scientific forms of evidence in their personal standards.

Show quote history

"Non-scientific forms of evidence" is quite literally an oxymoron.

If there were any credible evidence that there was an afterlife, it would have romped home with the $1m James Randi prize. Mysteriously, the prize is unclaimed.

Original poster
SorcererGaheris · 28/03/2025 12:31

Parker231 · 28/03/2025 11:51

What positive things have the religions you have listed given to us?

More mainstream religions have done nothing but cause conflicts around the world.

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"What positive things have the religions you have listed given to us?"

@Parker231

Well, they naturally haven't given anything positive to people who don't believe in them or engage with them. (To those who do practice and engage with them, it's a different matter.)

Pagan religions don't exist for the benefit of non-believers and it is not their purpose to deliver anything positive to non-believers. My point is that these particular religions do not have a negative impact on the larger world or society, and so it would be incorrect to say that the world would be a safer, happier place without these particular religions. If Modern Paganism, Modern Druidry, the Fairy Faith, etc, did not exist, the world would be no better off, nor would it be worse off.

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Original poster
SorcererGaheris · 28/03/2025 12:26

CocklesandMuscles · 28/03/2025 11:54

Yes. Adult morality strives towards fair, just and responsible behaviour, without the carrot of heaven or the stick of hell, or indeed the idea that some supernatural being is keeping a naughty list.

@SorcererGaheris -- 'credible' evidence isn't a subjective matter. That's one of the main points of science.

Show quote history

@CocklesandMuscles I would say that what different individuals consider to be credible evidence is subjective.

People define and set their own evidentiary standards. Some people will only take scientific evidence, or certain levels of scientific evidence. Other people will include non-scientific forms of evidence in their personal standards.

OP posts:
CocklesandMuscles · 28/03/2025 11:54

Parker231 · 28/03/2025 11:49

We’re all priceless but some of us don’t need a god to do good things and be a great person.

Show quote history

Yes. Adult morality strives towards fair, just and responsible behaviour, without the carrot of heaven or the stick of hell, or indeed the idea that some supernatural being is keeping a naughty list.

@SorcererGaheris -- 'credible' evidence isn't a subjective matter. That's one of the main points of science.

Parker231 · 28/03/2025 11:51

SorcererGaheris · 28/03/2025 11:24

"Religion has caused so much harm and conflict around the world, life would be safer and happier without it."

@Parker231

The issue with making it about "religion" as a blanket statement is that I can think of various religions which have no history of causing harm or conflict around the world.

Modern Neo-Paganism
Modern Druidry
The Indigenous Fairy Faith (referring here specifically to the fairy faith of the UK/Celtic nations.)
Various Native American religions

These religions have caused no conflict or harm for the world at large, so the world could not objectively be said to be better if they were absent.

What positive things have the religions you have listed given to us?

More mainstream religions have done nothing but cause conflicts around the world.

Parker231 · 28/03/2025 11:49

ItsyourSam · 28/03/2025 11:26

"I am happy because things are going to be great once I'm dead though I am a disgusting and worthless being right now" is quite the sell

In response to @MasterBeth 's comment above (on the other thread), I don't think I'm disgusting and worthless. I'm priceless because Jesus paid the highest price and gave his life for me.

We’re all priceless but some of us don’t need a god to do good things and be a great person.

Original poster
SorcererGaheris · 28/03/2025 11:44

CocklesandMuscles · 28/03/2025 11:40

I would argue that there are justifiable reasons to believe in some kind of afterlife; people have personal experiences which they interpret to suggest that there is some continuation of life. There are people who have experiences in which they appear to have contact from deceased spirits (mediums.) Parapsychology research into mediumship has yielded some data which suggests that at least some mediums might be communicating with something/someone beyond this world.

There is absolutely no credible evidence whatsoever for an afterlife of any kind.

I think that people have differing standards as to what constitutes credible evidence for them.

The forms of evidence I mentioned are not credible to you and many others.

Other people (like me) do see them as credible. Basically, we each come to our own conclusions/decisions as to what we personally define for ourselves as acceptable evidence.

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CocklesandMuscles · 28/03/2025 11:40

I would argue that there are justifiable reasons to believe in some kind of afterlife; people have personal experiences which they interpret to suggest that there is some continuation of life. There are people who have experiences in which they appear to have contact from deceased spirits (mediums.) Parapsychology research into mediumship has yielded some data which suggests that at least some mediums might be communicating with something/someone beyond this world.

There is absolutely no credible evidence whatsoever for an afterlife of any kind.

Original poster
SorcererGaheris · 28/03/2025 11:37

ItsyourSam · 28/03/2025 11:27

@SorcererGaheris thank you for continuing the thread

You're welcome, I'm glad that your faith brings you such happiness. :)

OP posts:
ItsyourSam · 28/03/2025 11:27

@SorcererGaheris thank you for continuing the thread

ItsyourSam · 28/03/2025 11:26

"I am happy because things are going to be great once I'm dead though I am a disgusting and worthless being right now" is quite the sell

In response to @MasterBeth 's comment above (on the other thread), I don't think I'm disgusting and worthless. I'm priceless because Jesus paid the highest price and gave his life for me.

Original poster
SorcererGaheris · 28/03/2025 11:24

"Religion has caused so much harm and conflict around the world, life would be safer and happier without it."

@Parker231

The issue with making it about "religion" as a blanket statement is that I can think of various religions which have no history of causing harm or conflict around the world.

Modern Neo-Paganism
Modern Druidry
The Indigenous Fairy Faith (referring here specifically to the fairy faith of the UK/Celtic nations.)
Various Native American religions

These religions have caused no conflict or harm for the world at large, so the world could not objectively be said to be better if they were absent.

OP posts:
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