‘Sir’ and ‘Miss’ in schools is everyday sexism

"Ma'am" is more prevalent in the US, but it is definitely not American. It's an abbreviation of "madam."

Not really sure those who ferociously use "Mr X" and "Miss X." instead of Sir/Miss have entirely solved the problem of titular inequality. Really it's replacing one problem with another.

What is needed, is a universal ungendered title to denote the level of formality that society feels is appropriate between teacher and pupil. We could use "Teacher X" (cf. "Doctor X") so easily that it makes you wonder why we don't.

If there are other languages that have achieved this, it would be fascinating to dig into their social and cultural history to see how and why.

Alternatively there is the question of whether we think it is appropriate for children to be expected to automatically respect teachers.

I’m the first to call out sexism but honestly, after 40 years of teaching, this doesn’t bother me. I’m Ms Notellinganyone and will pick the kids up if they write it wrong and they tend to call me Ms/Miss Not.

I just asked DD what they do at their school. Most kids just use Sir and Miss and it’s because of pure laziness. It’s shorter than Mr whatshisface or miss teachermcteacherface or mrs thingymabob. If anything, it’s an equal lack of respect, because they just can’t be bothered.

Ma'am is not American 🤣

If you had met the late Queen you would have been instructed to call her Ma'am. If you are in court and have a female judge you call her Ma'am because it is the correct female equivalent to Sir. If you are a police/military officer addressing a female superior officer you call her Ma'am. In all of those examples calling them Miss would be incorrect, rude, and could get you in trouble.

Schools are the anomaly using Miss is not equivalent to Sir.

I am married but every single school kid calls me Miss. It is so much easier for everyone to call the male teachers Sir and the female teachers Miss. Our school has a lot of teachers. It’s impossible to know all of their names. I don’t find the children show me any less respect. On a one to one basis they call me Mrs Super hans. But in the corridors it’s just Miss.

I don't know. My dc are quite capable of telling a story along the lines of:

"It was really funny today because sir(1) told us to go into the hall and when we went in sir(2) was juggling and Harrison picked up a ball and sir(3) told him to put it down and then he started juggling better than sir(2) and sir(3) told him he should be in a circus. Then sir(4) came and told us we should be outside...."

Then they get annoyed because you confused sir(1) with sir(3)😂

I don’t know why people are saying that it’s so the children don’t have to remember staff names. They know the names of their teachers, and will ask for them by name when relevant, they just use Miss and Sir when speaking directly to the teachers. Obviously it’s also useful for talking to an unknown adult, but that’s not the primary purpose.

When I was at school it was ma'am in my below bog standard comp.
My brief flirtation with teaching all female teachers were called miss.

I've lost the post saying Miss and Sir aren't an equivalent to medicine but they are.

In that, the convention is Miss and Mr Whoever for surgeons in their vocational roles.

That is to say regardless of marital, social or educational status, these are used. Many surgeons are otherwise Professor or Mrs or even Sir/ Dame.

Ok, Mr is more neutral in terms of age and marital status than Miss but that doesn't suggest superiority. If it does, the problem is with the one inferring it.

Ma'am is most often military or police in the UK. I think therefore not suitable in schools. It has a different usage in the US.

The main point is that society needs to grow up and respect women. Women don't have to do these gymnastics to try and avoid the problem of a sexist society. We should stand firm on these longstanding professional conventions that we have worked hard for.

Miss holds a lot of respect. Teachers on here are saying so. I'm a medic, not a surgeon, but I've worked with many who are Misses and happy with it.

Because they don't even meet most of them in the course of their day so need something generic if they encounter them. By year 13 they probably know most names but in year 7 they won't. Even by Year 13 they won't know the names of exam invigilators, I use this example because I was one.

My kids school is "sir" and "miss" and I will also refer to them as that. I don't see "miss" as disrespectful - probably because marriage and the whole Mrs thing has no more weight to me and honestly I couldn't care less if somebody is married.

I wouldn't use madame because that is a term of disrespect "she's a right madame" and ma'am is American.

I'm probably wrong and feel like I should ask my kids teachers but miss for me is a sign of respect. And I am happy to be referred to as a "miss" and even if I was married would still probably refer to myself as a "miss"

My son’s old school called female teachers Ma’am. That way it worked for Miss and Mrs teachers.

I've been a secondary maths teacher for 17 years and love being "Miss". Students genuinely use Sir and Miss equally and there is nothing nicer than hearing them say "thanks Miss" as they leave the classroom. They don't have to... it just gives me a spring in my step when I think they have enjoyed my lesson.

The students who call me ‘Miss’ rather than Mrs Myname in the corridors and around the school are often not taught by me though. Why would they learn my name. But they might still need my help.
In a normal classroom situation Miss/Sir almost act as pronouns.
Regardless, as a teacher I don’t mind it. Many of the other teachers on here don’t mind it either. Our opinions also matter.

I must say I’m still struggling with the idea that children can be expected the learn and remember the GCSE curriculum for up to 10 subjects but can’t be expected to remember the names of school staff.

"Miss" has less gravitas...

Why?

What's wrong with "Miss"? What makes a single woman (Miss) junior to a married woman (Mrs) or a Sir. People are supposed to be equal, no matter what their title.

Meanwhile I'm in Maryland (border state) and there's no sir or ma'am at schools. It's all Mr and Ms Smith. Locally they seem to have switched from Mrs and Miss for women, to Ms for all women teachers. Some parents still teach their children to Sir and Ma'am people but my area has a more northern culture, and white northerners especially don't like it.

I grew up with sir and miss, I think I prefer Mr and Ms.

(in some American accents, Mrs gets pronounced Miz anyway, so this isn't always a problem)

Because I’m their teacher not their friend. Some form of separation is good.

I went to private school and we used names. Mr Heath, Miss Holmes etc.

I dont think I ever used Sir. Very old fashioned. I also think it's kind of rude not to use someone's name.

Why not? My children call their teachers by their first names, doesn't seem to cause any problems.

I don’t think people used to just call their boss ‘Mister’ or ‘Missis’ without their surname.

I’ve been called all sorts ! 😂
madam I didn’t really like because my mum called me a madam when I was naughty or I thought of a bordello madame

ive worked in a few places that do first names which I hated

honestly there are bigger fish to fry than the name I’m called which I dont think the kids give any thought to the unequal status

i am currently dealing with a sexist workplace and don’t get me started on Matt leave and women’s experience of the menopause in the workplace

I really don’t want to be known by my first name. That’s my at home identity.
Many, many teachers on the thread have said we don’t mind ‘Miss’ and whatever the origin it isn’t used disrespectfully now.

I really don’t like Ma’am myself. I’m not an officer in the police/military, nor am I old.

I don’t see what’s wrong with people using the term of address they prefer.

Interestingly our languages department all go by Madam/Frau rather than Mademoiselle/Fraulein. But when address to get attention it’s still Miss (just as it’s still sir rather than the target language for the male teachers).

But it should be equal. So all teachers are Miss and Mister or Ma'am and Sir. Or Teacher.