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To ask why jurors think manslaughter is acceptable as "loss of control" when death takes over 1min?

87 replies

Thisissuss · 27/03/2025 10:58

Curious to see what legally constitutes "loss of control" I suppose. Keep seeing women being murdered by strangulation then the guys finishing it off with a weapon they've left the room to get being given under 10 years because they clearly "couldn't help themselves".

Strangulation takes a long time...

OP posts:
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Thisissuss · 27/03/2025 19:49

YaWeeFurryBastard · 27/03/2025 16:47

Exactly and it’s quite shocking how many people can’t grasp this basic point. Murder is intent to kill and that can be in the moment as others have pointed out, it absolutely does not require premeditation.

I think judges should highlight this when a manslaughter plea is entered instead of murder. If they can't prove they weren't provoked in some way that would mean they were physically self defending in the moment they should automatically be charged with murder. Unless the woman has a gun it is unlikely they would be overpowered. The onus should be on the killer to prove that the person was a direct and real threat, not the victim not being able to show they weren't.

The whole lesser sentencing when it is a domestic case indoors is absurd.

OP posts:
newrubylane · 27/03/2025 17:06

MoMhathair · 27/03/2025 12:58

I'm also interested in this: (c) a person of D's sex and age, with a normal degree of tolerance and self restraint and in the circumstances of D, might have reacted in the same or in a similar way to D.

It's interesting that they mention sex and age - are women likely to be judged more harshly than men for losing control?

Wouldn't this also become self-fulfilling?

The more men make the "loss of control defence", the more normalised the reaction becomes, and so then this clause applies and normalises it even more...

Women are convicted of violent crime less overall, and so this defence is used less, and therefore it's not considered normal for women to lose control I. This way and therefore this clause doesn't apply...

When actually loss of control should be a rare event, not a regular occurrence. I'd wager more of the women who kill or commit serious violence have lost control than men committing the same crimes - precisely because that's why it's rare!

StumbleInTheDebris · 27/03/2025 16:53

I'm also interested in the overlap between "loss of control " and "provocation" as per the petrol case above.

Would imagine it's heavily dependent on the specific case.

YaWeeFurryBastard · 27/03/2025 16:47

ThDanielDay · 27/03/2025 16:39

Premeditation is not a required proof for murder.

Obviously evidence of premeditation will strengthen a case that someone intended to kill the victim.

Exactly and it’s quite shocking how many people can’t grasp this basic point. Murder is intent to kill and that can be in the moment as others have pointed out, it absolutely does not require premeditation.

StumbleInTheDebris · 27/03/2025 16:45

Mobe · 27/03/2025 13:31

I've seen it and the problem is the show set up. Juries are given much more direction and guidance by a judge , on the show they made it up as they went along.
Also clearly the jury were recruited to be controversial!

I can't share the case as I encountered it in my professional life.

I found this to be infuriating while watching the show. I knew there would be a fairly heavy degree of judge's instructions - which should be fairly clear as to what questions you as a juror need to ask yourself about what you believe happened. They didn't show any on the show, or even say that the juries were not receiving them (as far as I recall).

Also I don't think anyone defined what 'loss of control' meant in the show so it felt like everyone was making it up to some extent. Appreciate the discussion above by pp.

ThDanielDay · 27/03/2025 16:39

Premeditation is not a required proof for murder.

Obviously evidence of premeditation will strengthen a case that someone intended to kill the victim.

Waitingfordoggo · 27/03/2025 16:16

Winifredtabago · 27/03/2025 14:36

I meant stop going on to me about something that I didnt ask you about. I wasnt talking to you. I stand by the fact most men know murder is wrong and this bollocks of- oh we need to teach boys how to behave otherwise they might turn into murderers is just nonsense.

We’re all just having a conversation. Anyone can join in.

Parents have a big impact on their children, obviously. Talking to our children about violence (especially male children because statistically they are far more likely to be involved in violence) is never going to be a waste of time.

Thisissuss · 27/03/2025 15:47

There's one poster who thinks if they don't talk to their son about the warning signs in men it means they don't "hate men". If you really want to risk your son being locked by avoiding the topic, then don't mention it or look out for the warning signs in them or others. Your choice but I won't be engaging.

OP posts:
BlushingBrightly · 27/03/2025 15:35

Winifredtabago · 27/03/2025 13:42

Yes and?

You said we're talking about 'people who murder'. That's men. It's almost entirely men. That's not 'man-hating' so much as factual. HTH

Thisissuss · 27/03/2025 15:25

Swirlythingy2025 · 27/03/2025 14:40

The concept of "loss of control" as a partial defense to murder under UK law is legally complex and requires careful consideration of both the circumstances and the timing of the defendant's reaction.

Under Section 54 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009, the defense of "loss of control" allows a defendant to be convicted of manslaughter instead of murder if they were provoked, lost control, and acted in a way that a person of normal tolerance might have reacted similarly.

This defense aims to recognize that, while the killing was deliberate, it was influenced by a loss of self-control due to a qualifying trigger.

However, the idea that a defendant could claim "loss of control" when the death results from a prolonged or sustained action, such as strangulation, is legally contentious. Strangulation, as you correctly note, takes time often over a minute or more and can reflect a level of deliberation that challenges the claim of a momentary loss of control.

In such cases, the act may appear less impulsive and more calculated, undermining the validity of the defense.

The critical issue lies in the statutory requirement that the loss of control must be "immediate" or "sudden."

A sustained act like strangulation that lasts over a minute often points to a level of composure and planning inconsistent with a sudden loss of control. While it is possible for someone to experience intense emotional disturbance, the length of time involved in strangulation raises doubts about whether the defendant truly acted without the ability to control their actions.

As for cases where a defendant leaves the room to fetch a weapon, this may further undermine the claim of loss of control, as it suggests time for reflection and an opportunity to regain composure.

The jury’s decision to accept the defense of loss of control in such cases could be seen as controversial, as it involves the subjective perception of the jurors about whether the defendant's response was proportionate and whether the loss of control was truly sudden.

Ultimately, the defense of "loss of control" must be carefully scrutinized in these situations. In cases where prolonged actions like strangulation are involved, and where there is evidence of calm deliberation (such as retrieving a weapon), it would be legally appropriate to challenge the legitimacy of such a defense.

The jury’s verdicts, particularly those that seem to result in disproportionately lenient sentences, might warrant further judicial scrutiny to ensure that the law is applied fairly and that such defenses are not misused to minimize accountability for serious offenses.

While I suspect this is AI generated, it does confirm that "sudden" is the key to "loss of control" - as we've said.

I do wonder how much of this is down to that weird law about being murdered in your own house though - seem to remember from that C4 show murderers get less if they do it in your own home. Crazy when most murders are perpetuated by someone known to the victim, so likely to be invited in.
https://www.itv.com/news/2024-02-22/julie-etchingham-looks-at-how-the-government-are-tackling-violence-against-women

OP posts:
MoMhathair · 27/03/2025 14:50

whippy1981 · 27/03/2025 14:48

It doesn't to me. They are fully able to express themselves. That is more excuses to justify their actions.

Expressing anger is allowed by both males and females. It is a helpful emotion that makes change happen. If you are not angry at cars speeding down the road by your kids school then you wouldn't push your MP for changing the road layout etc. If you are pissed off at how you have been treated in work then you make a change.

They choose who they want to hurt. If it was a loss of control they would do it to all people in their life. They do not and why it shows they are in complete control not lacking.

I totally agree with you. We are saying the same things, I don't think I'm articulating my point very well though.

whippy1981 · 27/03/2025 14:48

MoMhathair · 27/03/2025 14:40

I don't disagree. My argument is that the idea of 'loss of control' makes sense in the context of men not being allowed to express any emotion except anger. It doesn't logically make sense at all.

It doesn't to me. They are fully able to express themselves. That is more excuses to justify their actions.

Expressing anger is allowed by both males and females. It is a helpful emotion that makes change happen. If you are not angry at cars speeding down the road by your kids school then you wouldn't push your MP for changing the road layout etc. If you are pissed off at how you have been treated in work then you make a change.

They choose who they want to hurt. If it was a loss of control they would do it to all people in their life. They do not and why it shows they are in complete control not lacking.

MoMhathair · 27/03/2025 14:45

The more I think of the concept of loss of control the less it makes sense to me. It implies that any person, given the right circumstances, could lash out enough to kill another person. Given how seldom women kill other people, that doesn't seem true to me, otherwise there'd be a fairly equal number of 'loss of control' incidents across the sexes, wouldn't there?

Which brings me back to the 'sex and age' aspect of the definition - is loss of control seen as more likely in men?

Swirlythingy2025 · 27/03/2025 14:40

The concept of "loss of control" as a partial defense to murder under UK law is legally complex and requires careful consideration of both the circumstances and the timing of the defendant's reaction.

Under Section 54 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009, the defense of "loss of control" allows a defendant to be convicted of manslaughter instead of murder if they were provoked, lost control, and acted in a way that a person of normal tolerance might have reacted similarly.

This defense aims to recognize that, while the killing was deliberate, it was influenced by a loss of self-control due to a qualifying trigger.

However, the idea that a defendant could claim "loss of control" when the death results from a prolonged or sustained action, such as strangulation, is legally contentious. Strangulation, as you correctly note, takes time often over a minute or more and can reflect a level of deliberation that challenges the claim of a momentary loss of control.

In such cases, the act may appear less impulsive and more calculated, undermining the validity of the defense.

The critical issue lies in the statutory requirement that the loss of control must be "immediate" or "sudden."

A sustained act like strangulation that lasts over a minute often points to a level of composure and planning inconsistent with a sudden loss of control. While it is possible for someone to experience intense emotional disturbance, the length of time involved in strangulation raises doubts about whether the defendant truly acted without the ability to control their actions.

As for cases where a defendant leaves the room to fetch a weapon, this may further undermine the claim of loss of control, as it suggests time for reflection and an opportunity to regain composure.

The jury’s decision to accept the defense of loss of control in such cases could be seen as controversial, as it involves the subjective perception of the jurors about whether the defendant's response was proportionate and whether the loss of control was truly sudden.

Ultimately, the defense of "loss of control" must be carefully scrutinized in these situations. In cases where prolonged actions like strangulation are involved, and where there is evidence of calm deliberation (such as retrieving a weapon), it would be legally appropriate to challenge the legitimacy of such a defense.

The jury’s verdicts, particularly those that seem to result in disproportionately lenient sentences, might warrant further judicial scrutiny to ensure that the law is applied fairly and that such defenses are not misused to minimize accountability for serious offenses.

MoMhathair · 27/03/2025 14:40

whippy1981 · 27/03/2025 14:25

Anger is not the same as aggression. Anger is a valid emotion for all. Aggression is a choice and not the same as anger.

They do not lose control. They make a choice.

I don't disagree. My argument is that the idea of 'loss of control' makes sense in the context of men not being allowed to express any emotion except anger. It doesn't logically make sense at all.

Winifredtabago · 27/03/2025 14:36

Waitingfordoggo · 27/03/2025 14:34

You want me to stop having a conversation on a discussion forum? No, I’m not going to do that. 😂

I think PP is right that we need to have conversations with our sons about violence. There have been quite a lot of articles written about this recently. Some parts of the media are beginning to wake up to the reality of male violence. But we have a very long way to go still, and as parents we have a part to play.

I meant stop going on to me about something that I didnt ask you about. I wasnt talking to you. I stand by the fact most men know murder is wrong and this bollocks of- oh we need to teach boys how to behave otherwise they might turn into murderers is just nonsense.

Waitingfordoggo · 27/03/2025 14:34

Winifredtabago · 27/03/2025 14:08

One poster! Please stop ok.

You want me to stop having a conversation on a discussion forum? No, I’m not going to do that. 😂

I think PP is right that we need to have conversations with our sons about violence. There have been quite a lot of articles written about this recently. Some parts of the media are beginning to wake up to the reality of male violence. But we have a very long way to go still, and as parents we have a part to play.

whippy1981 · 27/03/2025 14:25

MoMhathair · 27/03/2025 13:29

In a world where men are expected to be strong and silent and express no emotion except anger, the 'loss of control' argument does make sense - it is a logical consequence of people being unable to deal with their emotions properly.

Ideally in a world where you expect people to use their fucking words, you don't accept a situation in which someone becomes so unable to cope that they snap. Situations in a which a person is being manipulated, coerced or abused are different to my mind - in those situations you could argue self defence rather than loss of control, although you could see how loss of control would apply in a situation where a person feels hopeless and genuinely thinks they have no other way out.

Anger is not the same as aggression. Anger is a valid emotion for all. Aggression is a choice and not the same as anger.

They do not lose control. They make a choice.

Winifredtabago · 27/03/2025 14:08

Waitingfordoggo · 27/03/2025 14:06

Then why refer to posters as man-haters?

One poster! Please stop ok.

Winifredtabago · 27/03/2025 14:07

Pudmyboy · 27/03/2025 13:55

Most murderers are male

And? Most men dont murder. She starts off pretending she wants to discuss jurors and the law and court cases but within 5 seconds talks about we must teach our sons about this. Boys can behave in all sorts of ways but the vast majority dont need teaching that murder is wrong.

RightThenFred · 27/03/2025 14:07

nodramaplz · 27/03/2025 13:00

I think the difference is- murder is planned/premeditated.
Manslaughter is in the moment or unintentional

Murder can be in the moment. It's the intent that matters - even if the intent only forms a second before the killer deals the fatal blow. If they think "I'm going to kill you" and do so, it's murder. Though, apparently, if they say they "lost control", they get a lower sentence for murder 🙄
Edit - I clearly did not read the thread properly,. sorry

Waitingfordoggo · 27/03/2025 14:06

Winifredtabago · 27/03/2025 13:55

Yeah I have no problem with that, that's logical

Then why refer to posters as man-haters?

Thisissuss · 27/03/2025 14:04

@Tiswa I still think manual strangulation has to be the hardest to prove that is WASN'T intentional though, by definition. You can feel them, see their face change colour, have to keep up the pressure while they are fighting for their life.
A gunshot/car crash/stabbing - all seem to be far less premeditated in that once the second of application is done, there is no turning back.

OP posts:
MoMhathair · 27/03/2025 14:04

This might be a stupid question @Tiswa but why does intent matter?

Tiswa · 27/03/2025 14:00

@Thisissuss but it is the intent - all of this does indicate a premeditated intent to cause harm. Which is the threshold for voluntary manslaughter.

the issue is can you prove an intent to kill beyond all reasonable doubt and that is far harder

It is why attempted murder is the hardest of all to prove