To think SAHM with young DC deserve more respect

Everything that happens in society is a societal issue and this is obvious.

But when some people claim (on every SAHM thread) that they want a 'societal debate' about the impact of SAHMs, what they actually mean is they want to express their view that the very concept and existence of SAHMs is harmful in society. That's the crux of it.

Essentially, their reasons for continually provoking this 'debate' seem to stem for them feeling criticised or disadvantaged in 'society' - eg.

@SouthLondonMum22 - you are very honest that you find being with your young children quite boring. You often speak of your irritation that it's only you (not your DH) who gets snide comments that your kids went into full-time nursery at 12 weeks. Your sister is a SAHM? Also, you talk about how you earn more than your DH and you have separate finances. You say that you would never have married a man who went away on business for more than a day or two because you refuse to be on your own with kids for that long.

@Thepeopleversuswork - you talk about having one DD as a single mum. You feel that families with a SAHP model structurally disadvantage you in the workplace.

So I can see where you're both coming from, but I'm not sure what answers either of you are searching for on these threads though? Do you really think that if all SAHMs disappeared tomorrow, that would be a 'better,' 'fairer' or 'happier' population on a 'societal level?' If so, 'better / fairer / happier' for who exactly? You may be happier if you think all women are being forced to live life in ways that correspond to your life choices. You may also think all that matters is that women do everything the same as men and vice versa - regardless of whether they actually want to not. But what about what would get taken away from mums, dads, families and children in this scenario - like the right to organise their families according to their priorities? The right to live life on their terms?

Wanting to be around for your own kids and to not have to engage with or rely on nursery staff or childminders if you don't have to, is a fairly basic human desire. Those who can afford to be around as default for their own children day to day, very often will. Why on earth wouldn't they, it's hardly unusual or controversial. Others may not be cut out for it, or they can't afford it, and that's also fine. That is 'society' essentially. People will do what they want regardless.

I'm sure the self professed feminists of MN have other ideas though....

What sort of feminist isn’t “self professed”?

Is it something you can find out you are later in life? Is it luck as to whether you have the right blood test at some point?

I also meant ‘ignore’ in that she did not feel she had to personally entertain me directly herself for every waking second of my day, not ignore me as in I’m hurt and screaming 😂 I actually believe insisting on some independent playtime which is not directed by adults teaches children from a young age to play and entertain themselves and be less whiny! 😂

Nor do I, I used a playpen myself when mine were at that unpredictable crawling/not walking securely/putting everything in your mouth stage.

I meant that mothers should absolutely feel confident and have every right to go to the toilet or have a cuppa alone, but I do know people IRL who are very hesitant to do this, and I think that’s more prevalent with our generation possibly. Mums- go to the toilet, it’s fine! 😂

I wouldn't ignore a baby and clean the whole house but I really don't see an issue with popping a baby in the playpen with some toys so a mother can have a wee.

My Mum completely agrees with you!

She used to pop me in a playpen with some toys & ignore me while she cleaned the house, went to the loo, did whatever she needed to. We were expected to behave during regular visits to elderly relatives houses, if we were bored whilst adults talked then tough 😂

The whole activity thing is a more recent phenomenon I think, my Mum’s always saying how none of this stuff was around in the ‘80s. The pro for me was attending some helped me structure my day, do something fun somewhere else without worrying about putting a wash on etc, and getting to chat to some really lovely people.

However, I remain slightly sceptical in the sense that depending on whether they are free or paid they can get very expensive. They also could be at awkward times around naps etc. I think they are an example of how much more structured childhood generally is now (which is not necessarily a good thing! I had a lot more freedom as a child, roaming around climbing trees unattended with friends from a young age).

I hope you have more time for yourself now after working hard at many things.

@MerlinsBeard1

A societal issue is something that negatively impacts or creates an issue for society.

It doesn’t have to be something which has a negative impact: it’s anything which changes or influences the way people live. That can have positive or negative consequences or ambiguous ones or a mixture of both and all.

The decision around to work or not has massive ramifications for the individual and the family. It can have societal impact if large numbers of people change their behaviour.

Childcare, child rearing and the economics of the family are huge things, for many people the most important thing in their lives. I don’t understand why people are upset or uncomfortable with the idea that this is “societal”.

If it wasn’t societal threads about it wouldn’t run to 30+ pages. People care about it.

Exactly - the person who benefits first and foremost by your being at home FT is you! Just own it.

Yes, you have. You have tried to shame her into silence by flagging up the number of posts she has made on the subject. Why else would you stoop to those lengths?

Of course SAHM is a "societal issue", if not simply because these women are economically inactive. It's also a "societal issue" when you have SAHMs belittling WOHMs for their choice!

Sorry, that's on you. If we dropped this 'contact napper', 'velcro baby' cutsie nonsense, you would find things a lot easier.
This narrative about cold tea and not being able to go to the toilet alone is completely alien to anyone aged 50+.
It's all nonsense.
Your baby needs to get used to being put down and your toddler needs to get used to the word 'no'.
Why are you so fearful of upsetting your child momentarily to take command of the situation?
I sometimes despair about how this generation of babies who have never known discomfort, never been upset and never been in second place will turn out.

I dropped my children to school every single day, bar a few times when DH was around to do it. I couldn't pick them up, but I collected them from the minder's and took them all to activities. We had ballet, guides, scouts, swimming and piano and a few other bits and bobs they tried out along the way. Most of their afterschool activities were after 6pm anyway.

Homework was done at the minder's. Mine just sat down to their freshly prepared dinner a bit later. We also kept weekends free so we all had some down-time.

Now tell me again why your scenario is "superior" to mine?!

I breastfed my eldest two DC until they were each a year old and breastfed my youngest until 22 months. I'd gone back to work when they were 6, 7 months (this was when maternity leave was 18 weeks and I extended my time off as I was breastfeeding) and 10 months. Returning to work is really not a barrier and they adjust very easily.

There were no activities available to me locally during maternity leave, or if there were, I wasn't aware of them.

I think the only person who missed out because I was a wohm was me, because I had very little time to myself, and always felt under pressure, but it was the best choice for me.

It's a stupid premise. We spend our early mornings, evenings, weekends, leave and maternity leave FT with our children and it's beyond ridiculous to try to patronise us and tell us we don't know what it's like to be at home with the children! Mad!

No, you're still the one looking silly and petty. Don't be ridiculous, of course I know there's stats of sorts; it's just literally never entered my mind to check up on other posters. I never check on posters' other threads or posts either. I'm not interested! I think it's weird, creepy behaviour! I guess you've been checking my post count too?

So what if I have posted here more than you? I don't require your permission?

"Howling" - and you talk about anyone looking silly?!!

The vast majority of women spend a prolonged period of time at home with their children when they are on maternity leave which is OP's situation and why she started the thread in the first place.

It absolutely isn't exclusive to SAHM's.

I'm more than well. I'm not obsessing about post counts in order to score points.

We all spend time with our children at home. Whether you like it or not, it's not exclusive to sahms. We even have evenings and early mornings with them, fancy that!

I have never, ever felt moved to check out how many posts any one individual has written on a particular topic.

And why do you think only sahms should get to posts about sah? Bit discriminatory? Do you just want an echo chamber?

Interesting that that's how you're defining the issue and interpreting the debate. That isn't how I see it at all.

To make my own position clear, I don't think that people choosing to be SAHPs is a societal problem in any way. I genuinely don't care how other people choose to split responsibilities within their families, and if they have alighted on a model that works for them and theirs, that's grand.

I do think that there are societal issues around the gender pay gap; around women often being marginalised in the workplace because they are frequently seen as the default for taking on the bulk of caring responsibilities; around women often feeling guilty and inadequate no matter what they choose to do; around men often finding it much more difficult than their female counterparts to ask for and secure flexibility in the workplace; around women typically losing out more than men financially as a result of having children; around women on low incomes being unable to stay in work because of the cost of childcare; around the woefully inadequate support that is available to parents who SAH to be carers for disabled children; around workplaces needing to become more flexible to accommodate the needs of all workers etc. And many other issues.

I'm not saying that SAHPs are responsible for any of the above. Of course they aren't, because these are societal issues. Which is kind of my point.

Everyone is heavily influenced by society, not just women.

Of course it does. The fact that women are seen by society to be the default parent absolutely affects me as a working mother and that's just one of many examples.

A societal issue is something that negatively impacts or creates an issue for society.

Choosing to be a SAHM does not meet this criteria. I'm sure the self professed feminists of MN have other ideas though....

Well, a lot of things are indeed societal issues, I suppose.

Whether you like it or not, societal expectations do play a huge role in the beliefs that people hold and the choices that they make. And political decisions also have an impact on those choices, e.g. around the extent to which childcare costs should be subsidised by the state, the extent to which parents in receipt of certain benefits should be required to look for work etc. I'm struggling as to how you could see this as anything other than a societal issue tbh.

What is your definition of a societal issue, I wonder?

If women were so heavily influenced by society, we wouldn't be doing completely different things or making completely different choices.

The individual character trumps societal influence.

You working doesn't affect my life and me not working doesn't affect yours.

Society influences us all. Some things are ingrained from birth. That's how society and societal norms work.

Women aren't silly but of course they are influenced by society.

By your definition 'feeling judged' qualifies in making something a societal issue? Practically everything is a societal issue then.