Why are we letting children call the shots?

Why do so many posters on here think discipline means cruelty and violence against children? It comes up all the time. It's alarming that they don't understand what discipline actually is.

No worries 😊. I mentioned my nephew because he required more 'effort ' than the others. He was the one that would want to get down from a high chair. The others, not.

Honestly, we took them to child friendly restaurants that supplied the colouring, chatting etc and they were fine.
Part of the first half hour was used for toileting, washing/cleaning hands and by the time you've gone through the whole routine, the food is almost ready.

For the most part, we practise 'dance a yard before you dance abroad', so it mostly fell into place.

Our eldest was a bit of a fussy eater (like his father was as a child! hasttag Just Saying), wasn't keen on mushy food, strawberry, steamed greens, more a texture thing. So we played the long game, as he was a "eat to live" child we didn't make the dinner table a battle ground. It is also advised, if you can get your child to try things over and over again, so with all this in mind if he ate "one piece of broccoli" or one strawberry, or try a bit of each vegetable, he could go.

It took years. But his relationship with food is ok now, could be better but so much better than we thought was possible (and we still advise and encourage him). Nailing him to a chair, telling him he had to "finish" his plate and he couldn't come back later, was not going to get us anywhere and possibly/likely create a dysfunctional relationship with food. So he could go and come back, he came back to healthy stuff, it wasn't like we gave in and fed him crisps or anything like that.

This was at home.

We explained our technique and reasons when we visited friends and family, and if they had a stay at the table, ours would stay at the table being well behaved but they didn't have to finish their plates, compromise. If needed.

And if we ate out, it was always at a venue that was suitable for their age, time of day, other cliente.

What we did at home had no bearing on anyone else, when our children were young and out they didn't intentionally, and rarely if ever made anyone else's time out miserable. They knew how to behave at pre-school, and school. They are now almost young men and are decent, can take them to any restaurant now to eat, table manners, actually we can take them anywhere and they adapt their behaviour accordingly.

Now when eating with friends they are the ones who now to play a game after dinner and stay at the table being totally entertaining, was this because they came to view the dinner table as a place of fun and relaxation not rules and regulations? They don't have their phones at the table unless we need to QR code an answer in a game or something comes up in conversation that needs a a phone to prove or show it. But they are communal phones.

So what's the problem? What is the actual problem in letting a child leave a dinner table in their own house, because the OP says go and play with their toys which indicates at home.

How a child eats at home and their behaviour around eating in social settings can be, usually are, two completely different issues. And just because you let a child move away from a table doesn't mean they "call the shots".

If you met them OP you would never be able to guess they were "allowed to call the shots" and drift from dinner table when they were young. It's about the end game, turning them into nice adults, how you get there is not a proscribed list of rules that works with every child, every time.

At home we allow our kids (4 and 2) to get down from the table when they’ve had enough and go and play if they want. They don’t get to go back and forth, though.

We go to restaurants all the time and have no issues, they will happily sit at the table and chat with us. Sometimes we take colouring but most times not as they are happy sitting with us and chatting.

The eldest also has no issues sitting and eating nicely at nursery either 🤷‍♀️

Look, there is going to be context here, it is not common to be getting HV advice for a school age child. But generally, of course I agree children should be taught nice table manners and given boundaries in general, adjusted for that individual child's abilities. I just do it though without any handwringing over "The Advice" which I've heard second or third hand, and teach them all sorts of other things to make theirs and everyone's lives nicer as they grow up too. I assume most parents are the same.

OP has been very vague. To me it sounds a lot like the posters that state 'apparently all reception age children go to school on nappies now'. They take a statement, run with it and it becomes a load of bollocks.

I'm wondering if this is down to advising parents to trust DC when they are full, rather than forcing them to eat more? We have lots of eating disorders in this country, caused by people not learning when they are full. I'd imagine if a DC decides they are full, then are forced to sit for 30 minutes they will pick and over eat.

You may be well informed about child behaviour but in this context you don’t seem to get the point.

I think I was 14 when I stopped asking if I might get down from the table. If we had guests the answer was no until everyone had finished eating. It’s not rocket science, nor is it abusive for children to be told they must have consideration for adults.

Consequences for asking to leave the table ..

Is it a home or a borstal... Jesus wept...

Children are all 'natural born explorers' - humans are naturally nosey creatures. Some are more cautious than others and more wary of danger but curiosity about the world is born in.

However, humans have to learn about social behaviours. We need to have boundaries when we live together or we make each other unhappy/unsafe. These boundaries are not natural - they are social/cultural behaviours and agreed in our groups. They are passed on to our children.

If your child is allowed to roam about freely at home - they will expect to do this everywhere (it is their normal).

If you don't teach them the social norms of the outside world (for eating or learning or being inside rather than outside etc.) - then they will not easily fit in.

This could be really miserable for them. Eventually someone else will have to teach them. This is likely to be tougher for your child than if you do it at an early age.

You don't need to damage your child while helping them to meet normal/average/general expectations -for when this is required. It can be fun to learn to do 'the right thing' for different places and different activities. (The approval from the adults of the outside world doesn't matter all that much but it is great for a child to feel it!)

You couldn't be more wrong about "all children".

Believe me when I say when I have worked with the top ed psychs in the country on huge early years projects about behaviour and development. There is a huge range of normal behaviour, that is way outside of parental influence.

I'm not saying that I always navigate my son's behaviour perfectly (nobody does!). But I am probably much better informed about normal child development than most parents, and the different types of infant behaviours. That's not a boast, just a fact.

Health visitors only work with children under school age.

Child friendly means they have a menu for children and a play area. It does not mean that the restaurant IS the play area

So doing all that was completely pointless then lol

Erm, I don't know ANY adults who get up and run around whilst eating food then sit down again. As above, my son has picked up wiping down tables, putting things in bins, fetching me things, helping me dress him. Far from feral, just very active.

DS will now sit at a table if we go out, it was a nightmare when he was younger though as he'd constantly run off and I'd constantly have to chase him and bring him back. He was actually better as a toddler, when we'd get complimented on his good behaviour.

We just didn't go out much for a bit, or if we did we'd take him to Costa as he was ok in a Costa (all very similar, food always the same).

Now we can go out, but keep an eye and if he seems to be getting overwhelmed ask him if he wants to go for a walk outside. Unfortunately family always want to meet up in dog friendly pubby places, and DS struggles in that environment, but wants to see them ( probably is most interested in seeing the dog as he loves her).

@TheNinkyNonkyIsATardis, l am afraid you ARE one of “those” parents. You need to be the adult and, firmly but kindly, make him stay at the table/in a high chair until has finished eating. If he is not ready to be taken out to eat without disturbing others then you do not take him. I will break this to you gently - all children will behave like your little boy given the chance, but the reason most don’t is because they have adults for parents who take charge. Children need and appreciate boundaries and rules as they feel safe and know where they stand. A lack of rules and expectations is terrifying for them.

I don't know where that advice is from.
Agree with others who said that it should be ignored.
I don't know whether I would be considered a permissive parent though - DD has breakfast sitting on the floor with a plate whilst I read her stories. She eats it in her own time, she stops eating when she's full.
At dinner she always sits at the table. We eat together. She sits there until I've finished. No problems.
At lunch sometimes we have a picnic on the floor. She has her teddy with her and pretends to feed it some. She still has to sit whilst she's eating and can't go off and play. It's not her that calls the shots, it's me. When it's unmessy food and we have time I don't mind having fun. But dinner is always the same, at the table.

The OP has carefully given zero explanation/context about why the HV is advising this for a child of this age...

No-one actually. People (children) have always been free to excuse themselves, but it's rude to be eating while running around or to be constantly swinging back and forth to the table / making a general nuisance of yourself.

I bet there were also things your child was great at which aren't shown in the context of this conversation!

My son might want to get down and explore from his high chair. He also loves to tidy up, wipes down the table, clears up all his food, and puts everything in the bin as soon as he's finished with it.

I have plenty of friends with babies who sit still in restaurants but leave the place filthy with food and crayons all over. My son is a brilliant cleaner/tidier. Just not a good sitter.

Nail on the head. And mostly learned by watching and observing those around them, i.e. their immediate family. If the family behave properly, with manners, respect, following rules, etc., it becomes ingrained behaviour for the child to do the same. They don't need "training", it's just automatic/instinct to emulate those around them.

If their immediate family have no boundaries, no respect, etc., and are basically feral, then it's no surprise when the child grows up feral too!

@trivi

Family member got given this advice from the health visitor, the child’s in school 😵‍💫

Do you know why the HV is advising parents of a school age child? Has the child got issues around food? I could understand them saying this, in that case, to take the pressure off meal times perhaps? Assuming a young child?

Trained is totally different to socialised.

But your post demonstrates - many paths to a well-behaved 6yo.

Modelling is more important than 'training' and when it comes to training, methods are everything - some are abusive and result in different issues.

Apologies, it just seemed strange to me that you would mention your nephew’s table manners rather than your own experience of parenting.

I’m amazed. So you sit down for your regular Sunday lunch at a table in a restaurant with your 18mo child. You face at least a 30min wait before any food actually arrives at the table. Then maybe another 30mins between courses. There’s usually only so much colouring/chatting that will entertain a normal 18mo before they get bored.

Are you seriously telling me that not one of your many charges, at this age, wanted to get down from the high chair at any point?

If so, than I suggest either they were very unusual, you’ve forgotten what it was really like, or you rarely actually ever went out to a restaurant.

Or a 4th possibility that they were noisy and grumbling in their high chair while you refused to get them out.