Why are we letting children call the shots?

It's utter nonsense. Bloody gentle parents desperate to include their young children in absolutely everything to make sure their child feels valued and 'seen'.

It's why children are now so stressed and overwhelmed by life. The very most responsibility they should have is choosing what colour crayon to use next.

That's very kind, thank you. She gets on fine, but it never hurts to have an understanding of why you struggle with a particular thing; so I'll look into this 😊.

I hate to be that person who diagnoses people online but all those traits you mention are very common in dyspraxia. It might not be something that you feel she needs any more support with, but if you do feel she might benefit then most universities/colleges can investigate.

I don't think it's true that all children are "natural-born explorers." I have met several who will not leave the side of their parent or caregiver or interact with anyone they don't know very well.

As someone who grew up with guidance and boundaries I like to think I had an enjoyable childhood and maintained a close relationship with both parents until they died and have become a respectful hard working adult who has fun. I also brought my daughter up with those values and we’re very very close, nowadays children have no respect or relationship with their parents because they have never needed to respect them and feel they deserve respect so are entitled as adults.
I’d hate to be brought up today, work hard and play hard was the motto now play hard and expect.

Today's parents consider their children's needs way more than previous generations did. That is why we aren't teaching our children to be seen and not heard by whipping them.

I responded to your post and I can assure you I do not aspire to perfect parenting. I just have some non-negotiables. FWIW, minus the exploring in restaurants, I actually think your son sounds fantastic.

My daughter didn't respond to everything, no.
At 16, she still can't tie her laces properly, still has to think to differentiate left from right; and at one point would have a room looking like a pigsty.

Some things I can sort out, some I can't. Some I accept and some I don't.
Sometimes we butt heads, but ultimately she understands that somethings just won't be tolerated.

@TheNinkyNonkyIsATardis , dunnow what happened to the tag.

Indeed. I think Gen Z are pretty great actually.

My children ask to leave the table which is nice. My mum used to get us home from school put our dinner on the table then go to work. So we never had anyone telling us where to sit or when to leave!
When we’re eating out or at someone’s house my kids will be polite about it.
I always think is it worth controlling my kid over this? Is it a hill I’m prepared to die on, would they need to do this as an adult. Well no would expect as an adult they wouldn’t need to ask permission to leave the table.

It goes back way before Orwell too. It has been that way for centuries.

As far as I can tell, each generation improves on past parenting. Todays young people are way better than I was at that age.

Thank you.

As a side note, overcrowded restaurants are a pet peeve of mine. I hate having to shuffle between seats, and having small tables, uncomfortable chairs, and plates that are absolutely huge compared to the size of the table/number of chairs.

There's a chain of soft plays near Sheffield that have lovely wide open seating areas, and ACTUALLY DECENT FOOD that I wish I lived much closer too.

Maybe my spiritual dining home is a Harvester.

I was made to sit at the table and clear my plate or it would be served up again the following day. I ended up with a pretty severe eating disorder. Meal times at our house are very relaxed, I don't make them eat anything they don't want and they certainly don't have to ask me to leave the table. They're still able to sit through a meal in a restaurant or at someone else's house, it's not all or nothing. I'm not sure why you're bothered by how people eat dinner in their own homes op.

Was George Orwell being ageist?

"Every generation imagines itself to be more intelligent than the one that went before it, and wiser than the one that comes after it.”

How come it's ok for people to come on MN and endlessly punch down about kids and parents younger than them. Ageist, much?

Absolutely, yes, because I'm not so entitled as to think that the world is set up for my convenience.

If I wanted to go somewhere child-free, I did. I'm bright enough to be able to spot a large climbing frame in the beer garden or a box of Lego set up in the corner of a pub and know that that means there are likely to be children.

If I went somewhere more adult-oriented, a child walking around with parental supervision has never been an issue.

There's been a very limited number of occasions when I've encountered out of control kids running around, crashing into people and things, pushing over chairs and shouting. That's not acceptable and not what @TheNinkyNonkyIsATardis has described at all.

You're doing absolutely nothing wrong and the previous responses are ridiculous. We also like to eat out at family friendly places with designated play areas for kids. If you don't want your peaceful meal to be disturbed by the presence of children then you shouldn't be in chain restaurants and pubs set up for families.

If you turn up at Harvester or Hungry Horse and expect classical music, white table cloths, and well-mannered chatter at a low volume then you are the problem, not parents who have brought their kids.

DD was exactly like your DS at the same age and we used to follow her around as she explored and guide her towards a play area, then back to the table when food arrived. She is now 5 and people frequently comment on what beautiful manners she has.

Don't know. Doesn't happen in my house. You don't have to eat everything on your plate if you don't like it or are full. But you need to try it. Plus you can't just leave the table to roam around and play

Health visitor….in a school. Sure OP. I be.ieve you.

You must have enough responses for whatever article you are writing by now.

HVs generally don’t work in school, school nurses do though.

Well if you'd read my further post, you'd have seen that we target restaurants (which is a generous definition of some of them...) that are large and spacious (e.g. 10-15ft wide open areas between tables), have play areas, and ideally keep him outside until food. And that he's not allowed near staff areas or by other tables.

I'm perfectly happy to have stuck my head above the parapet on this one, but I am still waiting for literally anyone on this thread to respond to my points about whether or not their "good restaurant behaviour" kids ever needed more support/training in learning a different skill/context.

Until someone can tell me that their child ALWAYS responded to their methods of parenting perfectly in one go for all things they learned and in all contexts, without any implications for other people in the outside world, I'm going to stick with my methods.

Honestly, thank you for replying. Because it seems very much to me like most posters on this thread are happy to tell me what a shit job I'm doing (I'm not), but are strangely quiet on the question of whether there was anything they struggled to get their child to do/learn...

And would you have felt the same BEFORE you had children?

It was ok for your dd to scream on the plane at take-off, but if another toddler has a panic in their high chair and needs the comfort of a parent, that’s different is it?

No, it was not okay, hence it was sorted and never repeated. She was distressed, I couldn't have her on my lap (safety reasons), so I did my best to comfort her and we later explained to her why she HAD to wear the seatbelt.

Reread my posts another time, as I think you've imagined me saying children in distress shouldn't be comforted or should be restricted in any way.

If you've gone out to eat in a family friendly place where there is a play area and lots of kids, then you should not be surprised that there are children around. I'm not sure why it is so very disturbing to your peace to have children walking past your table. At no point did PP say that her child is clambering up onto neighbouring tables to perform a tap dance. He's simply walking about a large open space, with a parent supervising him, on his way to a suitable area to play.

If you don't like children, you are entitled not to have them, and you are also entitled to frequent places which don't allow children, but you are not entitled to a child-free world.

That's all fine, but I think what I struggle to get my head around is how you seem oblivious to the inconvenience you are putting other people to, so say nothing of how irritating it is to other diners who want to enjoy their meal in peace.
You think you are doing what's right for your child, but you can't seem to see the effect it's having on others, who have not chosen to be 'entertained' by a toddler who 'won't' sit still.

It seems that there are at least two possibilities.

One is that the health visitor is not only an idiot, but also acting unprofessionally, using their position of authority (we generally take what health visitors say seriously) to peddle their views on child development, which they are probably unqualified to pronounce on.

The other is that some important details have been omitted (e.g., "What should I do when my child goes completely nuts at mealtimes, we're at the end of our tether" / "Well, one possibility is to just let them get down from the table, I suppose") in what is now a third-hand telling of the story.

Either way, it is simply not the case that we are in some kind of "Busybody social workers going mad" scenario, where some mysterious "they" (the "globalist metropolitan elite", possibly) have decided that children should be allowed to do what they like and it's all an outrage to common sense etc etc.

There is not one profession without some people who hold contrary views. There are atheist vicars. There are doctors who think vaccines are harmful. The existence of one of two such people does not change the consensus.

@TheNinkyNonkyIsATardis I'm afraid you are "one of those parents"

It sounds like you are making excuses in calling your little one "a natural born explorer" because you don't have the backbone to parent him.

If you had not pandered to him he would have eventually learnt to sit at meal times or when you wanted him to

Funnily enough my son is actually absolutely fine in both the pushchair and the car seat.

Unlike all his baby friends, he's also really compliant for nappy changes - in fact he'll get the mat, nappy etc for me, and bin everything else afterwards.

And as above, he's been socialised to clean, tidy, wash his hands, brush his hair etc. He knows the order of care routines and has helped carry them out for months.

So it's not a case of me bending to his tiny will/not putting boundaries in/not socialising him.

It's a case of him taking longer to learn this particular thing. He will learn, just like (hopefully) other children will learn to clean up and tidy like he does.

I think I’ve completely misunderstood you then. I thought you were saying that your nephew never did get down from the high chair because you had responded so scathingly to the poster who said she struggled to keep her baby in a high chair for any length of time in a cafe.

Ironically, upon re-reading your post, I think I’m probably more strict than your sibling. In my house, we all sit together to eat a meal at the point that the food is ready. The older children have to stay until everyone has finished. A toddler would be allowed to get down from the table, but their food would be taken away at that point and they would not be allowed to return for a second sitting. This all works fine for a family meal at home. It’s the waiting around for long periods in restaurants that’s the killer for toddlers.

You sound very rigid in your attitude towards little ones. It was ok for your dd to scream on the plane at take-off, but if another toddler has a panic in their high chair and needs the comfort of a parent, that’s different is it? Some babies don’t cope well with the feeling of being restricted in high chairs and push chairs etc. Toddlers are not rational and their thought process can quickly escalate from ‘I want to get out’ to a feeling of alarm and stress. You can’t reason with them like you can an older child. You can try to teach them, encourage, persuade and know that eventually the lesson will sink in.