Why are we letting children call the shots?

I'm Gen X and I agree in part. I think modern parenting is better in lots of ways than how a lot of us Gen X kids were parented. We weren't played with as much or interacted with as much as parents do now, and we weren't listened to as much either. Our opinions weren't taken seriously a lot of the time because we were children, there was still an element of 'seen and not heard'/'elders and betters' in the air even though this ethos was on the way out. We were smacked. From what I can tell, parenting in general has improved a lot in these regards.

However, I believe bad parenting is worse now than it's ever been.

All children have an innate desire to explore the world around them. It’s up to you, the parent, to teach them the difference between situations where it’s appropriate for them to do that, and situations where they’re expected to sit in one place, such as in a cafe or restaurant. Allowing your child free rein (particularly in environments where serving staff are carrying plates of hot food and beverages to other customers) is not appropriate. It’s much easier to instil good habits from the get go than to have allowed a toddler to get up and wander around a cafe then subsequently choose some arbitrary age where you tell him it’s no longer allowed and he must sit down… not only is it the accepted etiquette, it’s literally for their own safety and that of other patrons and staff…

Who is giving this advice? Children need, and thrive with, clear reasonable boundaries and expectations. It’s what reinforces the idea that they can trust the adults in their life to keep them safe and secure and empowers them to make good choices for themselves in later life. I don’t know anyone who parents in the way you’ve described? Nor any reputable professional who advises parenting in that way…

I don't know who advised that but it's not what I did with my kids when they were little and learning. It doesn't prepare then for socialising and manners in later life and when they start doing that in front of other people the kid won't understand why they're getting a bad reaction!
No!!!

You haven’t said it in those exact words but you clearly have very low tolerance for toddlers being toddlers and occasional poor behaviour. When a toddler has a tantrum the often are often distressed, even if the cause of the tantrum seems very trivial to us adults.

Your dd having a panic in her plane seat WAS ok, that’s the point I was trying to make. You do your best in the moment and try to reduce the chance of it happening next time, but she wasn’t being naughty, she was being 2.

Same here - started teaching good manners from the start. Stayed in a high chair until they could sit properly at the table. No getting down and wandering around the restaurant and no electronics at the table - same as at home so they knew what was expected.

It's not OK. That's ageist too. And for that reason I don't engage in it personally.

To be clear, the comment I was responding to, in itself I don't consider ageist, just a truism. But in the context of this thread it felt ageist to me due to its dismissive tone.

I wonder if some (obviously not all) of the decline in birth rate is because many parents feel obliged to do all this child led stuff with and it's just too fucking exhausting to even think about doing that with a bigger family.

I agree completely and I have 2 children.

I think the new societal shift towards only children, or 2 at most, has changed parenting.

@BungleandGeorge I think we do already make allowances though. Most of the circle time is spent doing action songs and those who absolutely can't sit still get a wiggle cushion if they need it. What they are not allowed do is run around and pull at their classmates. They are only asked to keep quiet if another child is speaking, out of respect. If we didn't enforce this the child who is trying to speak would be treated very unfairly. It's only for about 10 minutes and there is no formal teaching, its all engagement. In my experience almost all children will happily sit down and engage when told to, but some wouldn't if they had the choice and therefore not develop communication skills. I accept there may be other ways and am always ready to listen to different views but I really feel full open choice is bad for them.

It's just my theory. If you have a large family then you just don't have the time to sit down and reason through every single activity with them, while they argue among themselves about - well, absolutely everything and half of them aren't even listening. It is a whole lot easier to spend hours chatting through actions with one child. So it's not a 'all only children don't have boundaries', more of an 'it's easier to gentle parent, to be more tolerant and more hands on and explanatory when you only have one or two children'. Trying it with more kids, particularly if they have very small age gaps (I had five kids in seven years) is usually a hiding to nothing and the discipline has to be more absolute.

I will, thank you 😊. That might help her get a bit more organised. The room issue was always around lack of planning and then rifling through last minute, making an absolute mess.

She was an early walker too. At around 6 months she pulled herself up against the bath, stepped off, fell hard then spent the next 7 months crawling or holding on to surfaces all the way round the room to get anywhere 😀. She'd never just walk across the room. All makes sense now.

That's so interesting!

I have dyspraxia and was the exact same, skipped crawling, walked at 9 months.

I'm definitely an all rounder, and didn't develop a "handedness" until I was 8 or 9.

With all respect have you thought about changing your teaching methods so that children can engage? Sometime you’re asking children to do things that are not developmentally appropriate for them. Perhaps some of them would learn better if they can move? In this day and age we know that brains are structured differently. You seem to be writing off any presumably quite young child who can’t engage (sit still keep quiet) the way you have decided they must.

No wonder the country is in the state it is. What happened to parenting and discipline? Shocking. No child would be allowed to behave like that if I was responsible for them.

I was in a queue for a till (number 1 ) in a Lidl the other day and a mother and a young child joined just before me. However,it soon transpired that the child did not like this till (number 1). "No,not number 1" were her words! Luckily,it was announced that till number 5 was opening and they left to join the queue for number 5. I have no idea what would have happened if they had not opened a new till. Would we have had a full tantrum? Would the mother had to wait for another till to open?

Haven't rtft but I work with young kids and we also get this guidance from the education Dept (not UK). There was a leaning towards child initiated things and more choice over the past few years, most of which was positive but the latest guidelines are getting ridiculous. I have a training seminar in a few days and I know it will be about this. For example at circle time, I think some places call it carpet time, we tell the kids to sit down and we chat, sing and engage. All vital for social skills. Some children need reminders to stay focused if they start rolling around or messing and many need a reminder every few minutes but then they listen for a minute or two before drifting again. Without the reminders they would not listen at all. If a child refuses to join us we don't drag them and pin them down of course but they are told firmly and if there is absolute refusal they are allowed sit quietly elsewhere, most children who struggle here are those with additional needs. Our latest advice is not to tell the children to join the circle but to 'invite' them and respect their choice. A few children in every group would choose no and continue playing with the same thing they were already engaged in. They will not learn to speak confidently to a group or learn to listen or concentrate or develop strategies to help themselves sit still. The ones who don't like circle time as much are always the ones who already have poor focus and communication skills and need it most. The gap will widen between the children and these kids will start school completely unprepared.

The previous approach was choice within a limited range so saying 'we are painting today, what 3 colours do you want'. This allows children to reflect on their own preferences and assert themselves and gain confidence. Asking them what do you want to do today put huge responsibility on their shoulders and most can't deal with this. Half them would be sitting there eating snot all day if they weren't encouraged not to, they are mentally incapable IMO of making proper decisions and need calm guidance from an adult.

And for goodness sakes make sure their shirts are tucked in and they have the right colour of shoes on 🤦🏻‍♀️

I spend loads of time around teenagers. They have plenty of respect for those who deserve it. What they don’t have is blind respect for every older person, nor a fear of adults. And neither they should. They also have opinions they aren’t afraid to share. No shame in that.

I’m not sure why you think you deserve respect from a generation you are so ignorant about and scathing of.

According to whom is this the advice?
We practice gentle parenting with our son, however we implement boundaries. Dinner time for example - he has to sit sensibly at the dinner table. He needs to try everything that is on his plate (if he doesn’t like it, fine, but he has to try), he is allowed to leave food when he says he is full. He must ask politely to leave the table to go and play with toys. There is a fine line to tread between permissive parenting (what you talk about in the OP) and gentle parenting. We want our son to feel he has control and power over aspects of his life whilst still having the reassurance of boundaries set by us.

Since we descended from the trees and exchanged contracts on a nice cave bordering an up-and-coming district of the savannah, every single middle-aged generation has been convinced that kids these days aren't getting enough discipline, have no boundaries, will grow up to be spoilt brats who can't cope with the real-world necessity to get up every day to hunt and gather, and it's all the fault of the parents.

"But...but...now it's true! You should see them at bus stops!"

Yeah, yeah. We're living out the the final days of civilisation. The only hope for humankind is a renewed focus on the proper way to hold a fork.

Who would listen to this advice? I am afraid in my life i was the parent, i made the rules.

or even read it...

I agree on the dyspraxia signs - I have dyspraxia myself.

I understood about the coordination stuff when I was young, but I didn't know about traits such as daydreaming, and sometimes a lack of ability to plan. Worth looking at the decision/behaviour side of things as well as the physical.

It's actually not uncommon for dyspraxia sufferers to walk early but skip crawling - but crawling is actually important for other gross motor skills, and even fine motor like writing (I skipped crawling and walked at 8 months).

(Interestingly some believe that dyspraxia is caused by a lack of dominance of left brain or right brain, because for most people a dominant side dictates your movements. Which some believe makes some dyspraxics more "all rounders" in creative vs technical skills.)

Most parents I've ever known have gone with a parenting approach that's more-or-less reasonable and middle-of-the-road. Not idiotically letting their kids run the house while they stupidly smile and nod along like bobbleheads. Nor controlling and bullying their kids along in a cruel and unnecessary military style.

I think the extremes in parenting either way have always been around and have always been widely considered dysfunctional. I'm not a fan of "everything was better in the past" blather.