The most shocking thing about the maternity enquiries is how unshocked I am.

Ok, so compassion might be the wrong term/basic to cover what’s taught.

Firstly applicants are meant to demonstrate values such as kindness and compassion in the answers they give in interviews.

But yes during training there will be sessions on delivering compassionate care in difficult situations, so how are these values applied? No new student midwives knows how to handle caring for someone who’s just had a bereavement, or nearly died and is traumatised. So yes, training is given. There might be scenarios/activities for students to work through about how to advocate effectively for women, ie how to handle it when a consultant is trying to get a woman to do something they don’t want to do. Activities to get them thinking about different viewpoints, a woman who declines blood transfusions, a woman who doesn’t want an emergency lscs, a very “high risk” woman who wants a home birth. This sort of training is all very valid.

No, not surprised. Labour had its moments, but post birth “care” after my first was abysmal. A little example, though things got much worse: In my notes it was written something like “Iggleoggle requested a bed by a window”. Actually, allI asked for was some sheets on my bed as I was straight on a plastic mattress with no blanket. This was six hours after birth, I had been completely ignored for five of those hours.

my subsequent births were in a stand-alone birth centre, now closed due to lack of staff. It was amazing and also put to rest many of the things that went wrong during and after my first birth.

Midwives are taught compassion?
If you have to be taught compassion you're in the wrong fucking job!

These accounts are horrific. Rampant misogyny by the sound of it.

I happened to hear Donna Ockendon on Desert Island Discs on Sunday. She did a review and report on Shrewsbury and Telford hospital maternity scandal. I haven't read it but may be of interest to mention here.

The programme is repeated on Friday morning for anyone who might want to listen. It was mostly about her own life story, which wasn't a bowl of cherries.

Ah, yeah that is bad then. Character, kindness, etc is far more important than grades.

Yeah I'm not from the UK and have always felt it's disgraceful that there's no interview system

Not sure if it's been mentioned already, but where I live it's getting harder and harder to attain a university place in Midwifery. Your school completion exam grades are what get you in, no interview

Are you sure? It's an NMC requirement for a validated programme that there has to be a "values based interview". I haven't heard of any uni which doesn't interview. But yes, it's very competitive - about 10 applications per place.

Totally agree with both who've said this. In my experience, it's dual qualified Midwives who are worse. Nursing and Midwifery are entirely different. The old school way of nurse training was so harsh and does not gel with what Midwives are supposed to be at their core. There's also a 'we're better than them' attitude from those who are dual qualified towards those who aren't, so there's conflict from the offset. Direct entry Midwives are much more caring in my workplace.

Not sure if it's been mentioned already, but where I live it's getting harder and harder to attain a university place in Midwifery. Your school completion exam grades are what get you in, no interview. The level of grades needed is SO high, meaning that the most academic students get in, instead of the most suited. The most academic students don't seem to be the ones most suited to a caring profession. This is obviously a very broad assumption but just something I've noticed.

My best experience was on a MLU, post natal wards on hospitals have been dreadful. Particularly the night shift. Perhaps because MLU births are likely to be more straightforward?

I love this, and I wish all maternity wards were like it!

So much on this thread resonates with me, i was traumatised after my sons birth and used to dread the run up to his birthday as it bought it all back, it does get better with time.

what sums it up for me is that i had post partum haemorrhage and lost a lot of blood, but not quite enough for a transfusion. I was made to walk to get food/drinks and refused a wheelchair or any help to get from the ward to the car when i left.

A week later I went back for an iron infusion in a different department , they insisted on wheelchairing me everywhere because of the risk of me collapsing. The attitude was so different. The midwives didnt give a shit about my pain or about the risks.

I was very lucky to have a DH who was a fantastic birth partner who advocated for me when I couldn’t do it myself. I do think it’s one for fathers to actively do the same and tell midwives when their OH needs painkillers rather than sitting on their phones moaning they’re bored

One Born Every Minute videos pop up on my social media feed all the time and they almost always show midwives being unkind or demanding of women in the middle of the worst pain they’ll ever feel.

Yes, I used to love watching OBEM years and years ago but it always pops up on my Facebook and many of the clips make me feel deeply uncomfortable. Women being patronised and talked down to, some very questionable ‘consent’ situations, often an unnecessary lack of dignity as well. A lot of the videos are very old (the babies likely teens now) but I doubt much has changed or progressed.

This is bringing back memories of my first birth. After being induced and labouring with a back to back baby for 7 hours, I asked for an epidural. The midwife tutted, then started pulling at my clothes, saying I had to wear a gown if I wanted an epidural. She literally was trying to strip me naked in a room full of people without my consent, I asked her to wait but she said the anaesthetist was on the way and there wasn’t time. She then had an argument with the anesthetist in front of me. I was sobbing and my husband was shaking with rage but trying not to upset me.
I don’t think I really realised how bad this all was until today.

My first birth I had the loveliest and most incredible midwife with me for my most of my labour. Towards the end another midwife came and helped and I could sense a bit of an atmosphere between the two, like they definitely didn’t get on very well.

Second birth was mixed. Some lovely, some not so great.

I always feel slightly infantilised during pregnancy/birth care as well, often the way you’re spoken to is a bit reminiscent of being at school and can feel quite jarring as an adult woman.

Someone said earlier that they felt it was the fact midwives are now direct entry and that compassion and care are not being taught unlike those who were nurses first. My experience is that those older midwives who were nurses first are the worst for bullying and being uncaring (not all, I have had great care from someone who was dual registered).

I'd agree with this, that ime it's the older staff who were/are worse...though I expect I'm teetering on the cusp of being considered an older member of staff now and I'm not bad! 😀

Compassion and care is most definitely taught in direct entry midwifery courses. Recruitment is meant to be a valued based recruitment but obviously people aren't necessarily truthful in an interview so it's possible to get onto the course even if you're a total uncaring bitch I guess. And if that's the case then no matter how much training you give someone you can't change their basic personality. Hopefully if they're too bad they wouldn't pass training but again I imagine it's something they can keep a lid on until they aren't been assessed. Either that or it's a case of being burnt out causes some people to change

Is there anything expectant women can look out for when making choices about where to give birth to hopefully have a less traumatic experience? I’m guessing avoiding midwife led units but anything else?

My dc are 18 and 20. My community midwives were fine and the first midwife and student i had while labouring with dd1 were nice. Unfortunately I then swapped to a newly qualified cow of a woman for the rest of the long labour. My friend had her the year before as a student and found her and the midwife she was with to be horrible too.
Dd2 was a caesarian in a different hospital and the staff were fine

Excellent post!

This is why the fawning and clapping of NHSA workers in lockdown did my head in.

Thank you for this OP. It’s SO important.

I agree about creepy in midwifery. Tales of midwives shouting at women or withholding pain relief are disgraceful. One Born Every Minute videos pop up on my social media feed all the time and they almost always show midwives being unkind or demanding of women in the middle of the worst pain they’ll ever feel.

I still live with a birth injury nearly 12 years after my DD was born because I wasn’t listened to by midwives. The trauma from the birth still haunts me today and contributed significantly to my PND.

We mustn’t stand for this. It’s not OK.

We can start with something easy - stop forcing women to give birth in dangerous ways.

I’m sure the majority of women have some stories about giving birth at hospital, I know I do.

I did an assignment around freebirthers and the majority of freebirthers do so because they have no faith in NHS midwifery. Utterly heartbreaking.

I became a midwife because of the care I received with my first two. Whilst on paper my births were straight forward, the postnatal care I received after my first was a huge part of why I developed post natal anxiety and depression. They completely undermined my parenting and made me feel scared and that I couldn't care for my baby. I had to beg to get clean sheets, and they took my baby away from me when I asked for a formula too up as I should not do it otherwise I'd upset her too much. I didn't go to hospital with my second, the thought of being there again alone filled me with dread. I'm a confident assertive person and they broke me.

I'm lucky in the dept where I work, I am surrounded by passionate caring midwives who all go that extra mile to provide good care with the women and families in their care. We stay over to make sure things are sorted, we work in partnership with our ladies and make sure they understand what is being said and the implications of it. However I know through my work as a pma that there are areas where the care isn't as good and that we are causing harm to those in our care.

Someone said earlier that they felt it was the fact midwives are now direct entry and that compassion and care are not being taught unlike those who were nurses first. My experience is that those older midwives who were nurses first are the worst for bullying and being uncaring (not all, I have had great care from someone who was dual registered). Bullying is a real issue in midwifery, there's a saying that we eat our young. We burn out our NQMs and they leave in droves.

Yes there is a lack of staffing and there are a lot of other issues in the system but I don't think these excuse the attitudes I've read here. But it's hard to get people dismissed and whistle blowing still is seen as a negative.

Maternity services here are nothing short of barbaric. It makes me so angry. Women are treated with utter disdain, often with life-changing outcomes.

Can you imagine the outrage if men were treated like that?

I had a similar comment from a midwife, my baby was in nicu and on way down I walked out of my room and seen a baby going for their newborn checks. I started crying and turned back into my room, a midwife told me not to ruin other people’s happy moments. I highly doubt the other parents actually seen me crying, I was 2 days after birth and was getting constant bad news about my baby on ward rounds.

The same midwife always had a terrible attitude though.

Im so sorry you’ve experienced it as well 🥰

Yep the way I was spoken to and treated was worse than an animal. In comparison to how my dh was treated in the same hospital with abdominal issues it was like night and day. I got a discharge after two nights after a cs and haemorrhage even though they didn’t really want to because I was like what’s the point of me staying when the only medical care I’m getting is 2 paracetamol every so often? Absolutely barbaric. Midwives are evil in my opinion, no stressful work environment makes someone nice that bad - they get off on it.