Grandfather behaviour to granddaughter

Listen to your gut and withdraw.

I can not see any reason for a child to be sitting on anyone's lap for any reason, not to mind an hour.

Sadly this is not as rare as you might think.
I have had several friends over the years privately mention concerns towards elderly fathers and uncle's etc.

None ever accused them of anything, they just didn't see them for more than 5 minutes very infrequently, and they were told that they no longer did hugging.

They wouldn't engage in any discussion about it but did tell siblings that they "just thought it best".

One friend definitely thought her mother had an inkling because she took to calling on her own as her husband was in a wheelchair.

It caused them huge private grief, but they were not taking any chances.
So awful.

Reading what you have described makes me very uncomfortable

Your dad is a creep. Keep all your kids away from him and have a stern word so he knows he is not fooling anyone. I’d not have him around at all and never ever let him be alone with any of them. You’re an adult, your dad is no longer your superior so don’t tiptoe around him, tell him straight.

This isn’t normal behaviour. If you didn’t say something at the time you need to start saying something. And be direct about it. If you talk to him like you know what he’s doing you will be surprised how quickly he keeps his distance.

Do you even need to take your daughter to see him? Why are you taking her to visit a suspected sex offender?

I had an uncle who was always very affectionate and cuddly with me. Didn't keep me on his knee or anything but favored me. I was the only girl and a few years younger than my sibling and cousins. He had known me since I was a baby where as the others were older when he married into our family so i guess i was his only true niece on our side and that's why we all felt he was more affectionate with me. I used to go and sit with him on the sofa in the end, conditioned to I supposed and no one suspected anything as we were in a room fill of adults, he was never on his own when he did this and my parents never left me on my own with him so it was just considered affectionate. It was by me too. I genuinely liked him and didnt feel uncomfortable. Until the day, age 8, that we were all called into the dining room for sunday dinner and he kept me on his knee that few seconds longer so we were the last ones left in the lounge, 30 seconds max. I learnt never to go near him again after he inappropriately touched me over my clothes. I told him off and said I didn't like him doing that, I was raised to have my own mind and not simply comply by my amazing parents. He never tried anything else as I guess he realised I was not the right child for his abuse. I never told anyone. As an 8 year old with no sexual thoughts I didn't recognise it as abuse, just teasing. I was about 14 when I sat down watching a TV program which tackled these issues and I thought 'hold on a minute'. By that point he was divorced out of our family and had had a serious stroke so was no danger to anyone else. My parents would have been destroyed by this. They were good and protective parents, that 30 seconds whilst they were in the next room with all doors open was the only opportunity he had in a decade and he took it.
I'll probably post this and disable my account as this is my biggest secret. Might not even press post to be honest. But if I do I hope you read this and take on board how subtle abuse can be when it's people known to you.

You sound like a brilliant mum,

I'm sorry, but she doesn't. How can anyone allow a child to be made to sit on a grandparents knee for AN HOUR? And allow the child to be restrained when she tried to get up? There's nothing remotely good, never mind brilliant, about that.

SA aside, who would want to sit on someone's lap for an hour? No adult would, never mind a six year old.

Just stressing, the attitude of “keep an eye on it” is not really appropriate IMO. You can encourage your DD to say no all you like, but the way he is leering towards her is unacceptable. Either remove her from this situation or confront the man directly about this.

Why is anyone insisting a 6 year old sit on their lap for an hour? This is fucking disturbing. Do not put your child in harms way “with a watchful eye” - do not give creepy men the opportunity to put their hands anywhere near her.

Answer for your daughter.
No, Dad she has had enough. Five minutes is enough for a hug. Sit beside her and read to her. She likes stories and that is really good for her learning to read.
Insist that he hear her.
No, DD says she has had enough cuddles.
If you can't listen to her, you can't visit, sorry.
Empower your daughter, ALWAYS be there to assess the situation and voice strongly in support of your DD.
Be prepared to ask your father to leave the room, not visit etc etc.

OP, this. THIS is the best on point response I see so far.

Which scenario would you rather? Offending your DM and DD by stopping them seeing your DD?

Or

Your DD is sexually abused by her GF?

Not saying she is being abused or will be abused, but the basic principle of safeguarding is when you have a situation like this to forcefully protect your daughter, not risk abuse.

Your gut tells you something is off here, listen to it. You are her mother. It is your duty to protect your daughter. As it is for your husband too. Read "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin Becker.

1. Stop contact.
2. Allow your daughter bodily autonomy, never force her to kiss, hug or sit on anyones lap if she doesn't want to.
3. Teach your daughter she is allowed to say no, back her up when she does.

I despair, I really do, when I see parents forcing children to give physical affection to people who insist on it. That is absolutely teaching children to be perfect victims of sexual abuse.

Stop it.

Absolutely this! It definitely sounds like he could be grooming her, and getting her to be assertive with him herself is a very sound idea (obviously with support from you).

It’s hopefully merely eccentric and misguided behaviour rather than abuse, so taking a soft line initially would work best I think for everyone.

If it is, then your dad will realise it’s inappropriate and stop. If it’s sadly more sinister then you’ve prevented it from escalating.

I feel for you - what a horrid position to be in.

As others have said, listen to your gut.

My father was like this. Focusing on DD, lots of 'sit on grandad's lap', come up the garden with me, etc, etc. Thankfully, nothing ever happened - both DH and myself had a 'feeling' and kept her in sight. He was completely dismissive of DS.

When DD was 11 or 12, and started rebelling (for want of a better word!) his odd behaviour towards her stopped. She has since said that she thought his behaviour was wierd and was pleased when it ended.

But, his sister had a friend with a young girl - 5 or 6 and he transferred this, frankly, odd behaviour to her. He was made up when his new neighbours arrived with their two young girls. As far as I know, at no point did anything untoward happen, just an over focus on the little girls. A particular type, mind you, blonde with blue eyes.

His neighbours, however, noticed something 'off' and prevented him from seeing the girls. This pissed him off.

After his death, my step-sister let slip that he had attempted to rape her when she was 15. She believes something also happened with her older sister but has never been able to confirm this.

So, apologies for the ramble, but absolutely listen to your gut!

I just wouldn’t be going back or having him around, I’m sorry. There’s no excuse for this behaviour and given how he’s made you feel also? No. Stop all contact.

Your gut is screaming. Honestly, just tell him to stop, he is OTT.
I would absolutely hate this. He is banking on your silence.
If you want to be polite, say your teaching DD about boundaries.

She is six!

I absolutely second everyone who says that you need to find a way of stopping this. It is deeply inappropriate and your daughter needs to be safeguarded.

however I’ve also come on to add that as your dad is a certain age, it just prompted a thought that dementia sometimes can cause inappropriate sexual behaviour: https://www.alzheimers.org.uk/get-support/daily-living/challenging-sexual-behaviour-dementia#:~:text=Dementia%20can%20cause%20a%20person,or%20behave%20sexually%20in%20public.

so if you are seeing any other signs, it may be worth referring him for some support himself

TRIGGER WARNING Do not let her sit on his lap. My stepfather sexually abused me when I was 6. I never told anyone then but I had to sit on his lap and he would have his finger in my pants (sorry I know it's explicit but it happened.).
After 30 years he was arrested for abusing his granddaughters, not mine because I never allowed her near him but the guilt I feel is terrible that I didn't do anything to protect them. Even though my sister was abused by him and let her daughter's stay overnight alone with him after mum died. Thankfully he died in prison. It*s a shit situation.

He's a weirdo - or worse. He seems oblivious too. You need to have very firm words or cut him out of all contact .

It's the insisting that's creepy, OP.

I sat on my grandfather's lap while he read to me for ages when I was young but he usually got fed up before I did. When I wanted to get down and run around he never insisted I stay.

We're a very huggy family but only on meeting and leaving.

It could be innocent but I would be wary in your place.

Why didn't you say anything to your dad when he kept making your DD sit on his lap? That's bizarre even if you didn't have a gut feeling something was wrong. All you needed to say was she wants to get down and play now.
But now I would stop contact. His behaviour is at best weird at worst abusive . And on top of that he's letting his other grandchildren know they are not important. That will affect them too.
In order to protect your children you either go no contact or very low contact. If you do see him either you or your husband are watching him the whole time.
Also teach your DD she can say no. Tell her no-one has the right to touch or hug her unless she wants to.

Whether he is abusive or not nobody should be coerced into any physical contact they don't like.
DH's family are very "give so and so a kiss" to the children and I have always said that they don't have to.
Having said that In your shoes I would be very worried OP and stop contact

I agree with everyone above saying to protect your daughter but also you need to empower her. If she is trying to get off his lap, you need to back her up and say "Dad, Jane is telling you with her body language that she wants to go and play, please let her go. Well done Jane for telling us what you want." She needs to know you back her up and that she can say what she wants to do with her body. Maybe buy her a book about consent to help encourage her and for you to understand how you need to support her against an adult not listening

What o find worrying is that despite both you and your DH being very uncomfortable with this, neither of you said anything or at least removed your daughter from the situation.

Why didn’t you do anything at the time? Are you intimidated by your DF?

You sound like a brilliant mum, it takes a lot to even question this behaviour

I would recommend staying as far away as you can possibly manage

Are he and your mum still together?

I would be her voice and say no to his demands but also teach her in no uncertain terms, that she is allowed to say no to any physical contact with absolutely anyone, even you if she doesn't want to. Why you also.....my son wanted me to stop giving him a kiss and hug goodbye when he moved from nursery to main school as he was embarrassed in front of the big boys. Of course I was upset but didn't show it as I wanted he to know he could say no to anyone....including me, that no one has the right to make him feel uncomfortable. I hope you and your daughter are OK, this must be very difficult for you.

OP, whether or not this is a red flag for potential abuse is not relevant to your response. I would firmly tell your father than your DD doesnt want to be hugged so can they stop hugging, kissing , sitting on laps etc.

He won’t like it, will accuse you of making accusations and just say this is how we parent now, it’s non negotiable.

I would never ever leave you DD in his care alone. Even if your mother was there I still wouldn’t. Whether or not he is an abuser, he doesn’t sound like a nice man