Grandfather behaviour to granddaughter

For posters saying she's too old, I was still sitting on my grampa's knee as a teenager - obviously just for a short time! However in connection with OP's post I would be raising this issue with my Dad and taking it from there. It doesn't sound normal at all.

Exactly this ..

At last. Someone getting fucking angry.
OP. Why aren’t you. 😡

Equally you end contact. And then Grandpa shows up after a long absence. And the child thinks, 'Oh I haven't seen Grandpa for so long and now he's saying he missed me, plus it's raining and offering me a lift, so this is a bit of a non-brainer and I'll get in the car.'

Or you prevent this scenario by saying to an eight-year old, 'I believe Grandpa to be a dangerous grooming child sex abuser who you are never to see again.' Thus scaring the child witless.

Not brilliant choices either way.

I think often the truth is somewhere in the middle. There are sleazy opportunistic family friends and relatives and we have to work out appropriate strategies.

The problem with not ending contact is that it means the person is likely to be seen as "safe" by the child.

So when a bit older, if they're walking home from school one day and Grandpa (or Uncle John or friend of the family Keith) stops and offers them a lift, they'd just accept, why wouldn't they?

You can't always be there to supervise.

Not sure I 100% agree with @Garliccheeseandabagel

I'd say abusers go for the easy targets. The children whose parents are gullible have been successfully groomed. The children whose parents neglect them. The unloved kids who are desperate for affection.

I think saying either verbally or through actions - 'I do not trust you around my child. You do not have unsupervised contact with her. If you attempt to touch her in my presence, my child and/or I will put or stop to that,' - is a deterrent.

The problem with the 'All or nothing' approach is we can't always be clear who the abusers are. So those who are - for want of a better description - tactile people, may be treated as if they are dangerous abusers. While those who are pretty good at playing the long game, may slip under the radar.

I don't think there is an easy answer beyond talking to children about the fact they can and should say 'No' to unwanted touching, and that they should not trust adults who try and persuade them into keeping things secret from their parents.

As a Mum to a little girl, this thread has made me feel sick.

Do not let your daughter be alone with this man!

Omg this is awful. I hope someone steps in to safeguard this girl.

@Garliccheeseandabagel that is one of the best explanations I have ever read.

ETA- no, it's not one of the best explanations. It is THE best explanation I have ever read.

Because nobody will want to hear it. You can be NC and everyone winder why and hate you or you can be NC and have a massive row first and everyone go around telling everyone else what a total bitch you are and hating you more.

Telling him anything just means he'll seek to keep the abuse better hidden. It doesn't mean the child won't be at risk of abuse just because he knows her parents are onto him.

Even maintaining contact with someone having told them you suspect they're an abuser gives that abuser the information that there's very little you won't tolerate. If someone is going to tell or infer to someone that they're an abuser, the normal reaction would be to not want to see that abusive person. To continue doing so is telling them you're happy to break down (or fail to erect) your own normal usual sane and ordinary boundaries. It's basically announcing to the abuser that you're weak. How's that ever going to work out well for you?

There's only really three options.
Say nothing to nobody and just exit yourself from the family by going NC leaving them to wonder why.
Carry on like there's nothing wrong, continue to visit alone and make endless excuses why the rest of your nuclear family don't visit any more.
Let everyone know what you think (it will be everyone, the accused will defend themselves to everyone) and go NC.

I expect that with not being believed, because there's no hard evidence, most people couldn't be doing with the row. Children get raped and people still don't believe sometimes. The not being believed can add another layer of trauma too. It can be healthier for the victims sometimes to not to confide in other family members or confront the abuser.

People can't believe can they? If they do, they'll have to act on that knowledge, unless they're in favour of abuse. To carry on as usual like nothing has occurred would be them condoning the abuse (and enabling abuse if they're also providing the abuser with access to victims).

Easier to disbelieve and only lose one relationship, the accuser/victim, then they can all carry on as usual and not have their own extended family relationships/marriage (in the case of the abusers wife) blown apart. If you believed someone who told you your father/uncle/brother/ husband/friend was a paedophile, you'd not be happily going round to the paedophiles home next weekend for Sunday dinner with your DC, would you, and you'd not want to stay married to someone who is a paedophile either. It suits some people not to believe, it's convenient.

The fact that your DH also sees it as weird increases the likelihood that it is SA. If it was just you “projecting” as you say in your post, your DH might say “eh?”. But he doesn’t - he agrees with you. You can’t both be “projecting”! This man is not safe around your DD.

My mother felt as you do - about one of my uncles (by marriage - not her brother).

She remained careful - supervised and paid attention when he was about. She intervened on our behalf. He was never alone with us children.

There was nothing you could really pick him up on except playing very hands-on games and being a bit rougher with us than other adults. He chose to come and play games with us children rather than staying with the other adults at family parties.

He was always 'lots of fun' - but I didn't like or trust him. Thanks to my Mum - I didn't have to! She always picked up on any reluctance and always supported a 'no' - never making us feel we should be polite and agree to anything.

When I was a young teen he was jailed for what he did to a child (a friend of his own daughter) he had been giving swimming lessons to.

My friends husband is the same with the neighbours child (10 years old) as others have said 'in plain sight' she often only has shorts and vest on, he strokes her arms and legs 🤢 tells her to cuddle him, always on his lap, kiss him, nuzzle her face into his beard 🤮...of course they just say he wants affection but he acts like a lovesick man. He wears one of her plastic rings as if they are married. The parents don't think it's wrong. I have said I think it's disgusting but they say it's innocent, of course it bloody isn't. I no longer speak to them because he is also a coercive, bullying twat.

If you intuition is telling you something is wrong then trust it.
I love and trust all the guys in my family but I'm also aware that the most likely source of abuse is from people inside the 'family' group rather than outside it.
If I felt uncomfortable with any of their behaviour I would address it immediately, gently at first, but if they didn't listen/change then I would be more forceful and honestly at my first concern then any time spent unsupervised would be stopped completely.
Based on what you've said, I'd be well past the stage of initial concern and likely intending to limit or stop contact entirely. Honestly, it wouldn't have gotten this far.
If you don't feel comfortable 'accusing' your dad of being inappropriate with your daughter then I would personally go down the route that he isn't respecting her autonomy, she shouldn't be prevented from leaving his lap, you need to support her in person with this.. if you continue to allow contact.. he shouldn't even ask for hugs etc, say he should wait for her to initiate etc

Ugh. This isn’t affectionate, it’s grooming. He is making your daughter his favourite. He is pushing boundaries and making all his touch, the norm for her.
I was my grandads favourite. Before me, my older cousin, before that my mums cousin and before that, my aunt.
He did it for generations.

Intervene. Stop questioning your instincts. Yes ensure your daughter understands that this isn’t ok and make her robust with boundaries but don’t put it on her. It’s up to you to protect her. Keep her away from this man.

Your father hugging you makes you uncomfortable. Your gut instinct is telling you all you need to know.

I would cut contact entirely. He doesn’t see your children again. If not your daughter, he’ll latch on to one of the others.

You also need to have an age appropriate consent discussion as PPs have said - and if necessary do some research yourself beforehand. She needs to know that she is allowed to say no to physical contact - the fact that you didn’t speak up for her when she was being repeatedly dragged into an old man’s lap is alarming if nothing else.

I’m sorry, you really need to cut your GF out of your lives altogether. Your instincts are screaming at you not to trust him and you need to act on them now to protect your DD.

I was your DD’s age when my SA started, by my F and others. My DSis was also abused. The memories were repressed, but I always felt uncomfortable when around him and hated it when he gave me hugs/touched me. Much like you feel around your F. (I’m NOT saying that you necessarily have repressed memories yourself. That’s not for anyone else to say.)

Thankfully, my F died many years ago, so I don’t have to worry about my DDs. But you do need to take action now to protect your DD.

This sounds odd. Trust your instincts.

I think one thing that is tricky is the painful loneliness that comes with having a man like that - someone who crosses boundaries - in the family. Speaking up leads to ostracism from the wider family. This can add to the pain of having been a daughter who had been inappropriately treated as a child.. It's not something my elderly mother or my two brothers wants to discuss. If I had gone no contact, it would have reinforced my reputation as 'the difficult one' in the family.

Which, of course, obviously doesn't mean you sacrifice your child for the sake of familial peace. But it does explain why I went down the route of ensuring that any contact my daughter had with her grandfather was supervised. (He had tried to make it possible for him to take her out without me, and neither I or my husband was having that.)

Yes you should be concerned. Keep your daughter away from him and any other children as well. Share your concerns with siblings, because if he can't get to your daughter he will likely target another. And tell your father and mother why, his behaviour is totally inappropriate and disgusting.

Yes you should be very concerned.
You’ve actually described all the red flags of potential abuse.
Stop him having contact with your dc immediately.
Tell him why.

All the PP comments about speaking age appropriately with your daughter - yes absolutely, but why so few comments about telling your father/parents that his behaviour is completely out of line and not to stop being so touchy/feely (if that's all it is) with her?
Or telling him that you are going no contact and the reason why

Tell your dad his behaviour is inappropriate, and you won't be visiting him with any of your children in future. Be direct as possible that there is no future contact between him and your children at all. No cards, no presents, no nothing. And, frankly, I wouldn't see him ever again either.

This was the way it started before I was molested when I was 7. Keep her away from him

Sitting on his lap & for an hour !!!!
That is very wrong, & feet rubbing, it’s fucked up !!!
That has to make your daughter feel very uncomfortable..
If it feels wrong it is wrong !
You said you & your husband don’t think it’s right , Yeah cause it isn’t !
Stop it now …
Tell that father of yours aswel straight out not to be asking your little girl to sit on his lap , she doesn’t like it .. End of ..
Never leave him alone with any of your children..
Being honest , I wouldn’t want him around anyway …