Grandfather behaviour to granddaughter

This @Stripesarethethingforme a hundred times..

If there is no ill intent - it's still not good: it's teaching your daughter than men can have unfettered access to her body.

I worked in child protection for years... This is as red flag as it gets...

The foot massage... Could be building up to... 'This is where I liked to be stroked.... Like when Grandad massaged your feet.' the message that this is OK and 'normal'.

The ' rearranging' her on his lap... May be covering up an erection /or stimulating him by him subtly rubbing himself (frotteurisn)...

I worked with a great uncle once who eventually admitted to /was prosecuted for - rubbed himself to orgasm with small children in his lap over years... Part of the arousal was getting away with this/doing it in front of other adults. ... It was a huge family - he'd done this to at least 20 kids.

I'd be absolutely stopping him having any physical contact with her.... Tell him it's inappropriate /she doesn't like it... He'll fight back... Please. Protect your daughter.

This, I always feel awkward around my brother like I always had to cover up even in hot weather. He was a certified creep

Yes, the OP was advised that back in June and the person you replied to was a zombie stating the bleeding obvious!

I agree. I'm sure that this OP was advised in March to stop visiting as she is really enabling any abuse by continuing to visit her Father and allowing her daughter to be mishandled/abused. No Grandfather is better than an abusive one.

@Stripesarethethingforme

I know you’ve said that one of you will be keeping an eye out at all times, but I think you need to go a bit further than that. His behaviour sounds like grooming to me, and if you’re thwarting that by saying no, then he’s going to try every trick in the book to access her. Be that getting on the floor to play with her, then quietly saying things to her to make her feel guilty about not hugging him, to following her about, to distracting you both with ‘accidental’ spills/requests for things just to get you both out of the room, to going to the loo via her room.

These creatures are monsters. They really are. You might think you’ve left no opportunities, but they’ll find one. Quite frankly, I wouldn’t risk it. There’s too much of a chance to ruin the rest of her life. I’d either visit your mum without the children or ask a trusted friend to look after the children while they’re visiting you.

Hi op glad to read your update kids should never be forced to do anything especially by other family members he’s doing it to please himself your dd is not a fucking doll to be forced to sit for an hour especially if the other kids don’t do it. I think if it’s his way or no way I would be going for the latter always. You might lose out on your mum but a mother should make it her priority to protect her kids and I know this isn’t always possible but you can protect yours.

Do not allow your child near him. This is very worrying abd very innapropriate behavior on his part.

This is fucking weird . Stop visiting.

Very powerful watch… I had to stop as was very triggering for me. Should be compulsory viewing for all parents to be.

m

Here is the Oprah video.

@Stripesarethethingformeplease watch this Oprah interview with the author of The Tell, from 32:28 to 33:34. In the small segment Oprah describes, in the words of men who admitted abusing their daughters, how they go through “The Plan”. It’s shockingly illuminating, and something all mums should watch.

Be prepared. Your father is not going to like this one bit, and is likely to immediately challenge you repeatedly. How is your mother standing by, listening to your concerns and is still happy to stay with this abuser, and to continue to allow visits now knowing the risks?

Surely this tells you everything you need to know. She is an adult and has free will: and would rather put her gd at risk than do the right thing and keep her safe.

It is so dysfunctional op.

Your relationship with your mother should not trump your daughter’s safety.

Your mother has knowingly and willingly looked the other way and neglected her duty as a parent for decades, to remain with a man that is clearly very abusive. And now he is moving on to the next cycle of prey. Your child.

Your mother failed in her one duty to keep you safe, and she is just about to it again to your dd.

I don’t know how you can stand to be in the same room as him.

I hope I am wrong but you will end up with no choice but to go nc because he isn’t going to stop op. Men like him never do.

Look for solutions to see your mother without him, or you too will end up enabling and pandering to this man, by allowing access no matter how tightly monitored to continue..and no doubt you have all become desensitised to his emotional abuse which is also coming your daughter’s way. And so it goes on.

You need to teach your daughter bodily autonomy. The hug at the door should be something she is not ever obliged to do. If your daughter says no, then she shouldn’t be forced or coerced. She must be rewarded for being strong enough to refuse. ie “Good girl! You are always allowed to say no to hugs or touching that you don’t want. I’m proud of you for speaking up!”

Well done mama, it's not always easy putting in boundaries, but you did the right thing by checking in and clarifying your thoughts here. 🙂

I don't wish to be unkind but you really need to keep your daughter away from that man (monster). You will regret it if you let him anywhere near her ever again.

Tell him and your mum exactly why.

I wish I could turn back the clock and protect my daughter who is now an adult with bipolar and horrendous mental health issues.

Please please please keep her safe

@Bentoforthehorde that is very sad. I am so sorry that you went through that. It is unfortunately quite a common scenario. It is very generous of you to share your experience to highlight this.

I completely agree with you that it is counterproductive to pretend that there aren’t a great many predators of children around. They will do something as quick as a flash. They are drawn to children like moths to a flame so we do all have to be incredibly vigilant. It is very difficult for people without personal or professional experience to understand. It used to be said that 1 in 4 children would experience CSA at some point in their childhood.

@Stripesarethethingforme It’s great that you have a plan in place and present a united front. Do be aware though that your daughter could represent your father’s best opportunity of being close to a child. It may make him want to visit more often in order to increase the chances of you dropping your guard. He might restrict your mother coming alone as a way of pressuring you. You may have to take a stronger stance in the future.
Also, I hate to be the one to mention it, but do make sure that you are the only person taking photos. That way you can completely control that side of things.

Absolutely.

I know of someone who was regularly abused in a room full of people. In the living room, lights dimmed, sitting next to each other on the sofa, while the rest of the family watched the telly. It's not happening in every household, but it is more common than many people would prefer to believe.

This probably will go unnoticed, but something occurred to me after reading the posts after my first comment.

I wasn't separated from my abuser. I told my mum at around 8, the abuse continued until I was in my teens.
Because my mum chose not to speak to me about it, and not to confront my grandad about it, I felt like there was no point telling anyone anymore. So it's not only that your abuser is not seen as a risk, but if a child feels that other adults are aware of the behaviour and don't stop it then it must be normal or acceptable.

As teenager he gifted me a book in front of my best friend, it was a photographic book of people having sex. My friend told her parents, who took me home and told my mother. Nothing happened within my family that I was aware of, nothing happened externally.
When I was in my early twenties I found out that my nan was told about the book. She never said a word to me about it.
My mum, in my early 20s, told me that she had 'tried' to keep me away from him. And even asked me how I thought my brothers must have felt because he would give me money and gifts, but not them.

You can try and keep them separate, but can you keep that up for the next 10 years? Can you trust your family to keep them separate?
If any family member of mine was suspicious, my mum would not be allowed unsupervised contact because I know that she will protect appearances over the safety of children.

I wish we didn't have to go around pretending that there aren't a sizeable percentage of the population sexually abusing children. Not in my family, not in my village, in reality you have probably seen it in someone's bloody livingroom and just not understood what you were looking at.
My grandad would sexually assault me in the doorway of the dining room as family were filtering out! It's not all sneaking into bedrooms late at night.

I agree and apart from the psychology it's also practicality. It's as simple as a loud noise from outside or someone saying here look at this and everyone's eyes automatically go towards the sound/sight and pervert cops a quick feel of a child unfortunate enough to be close enough for that to happen. Maybe the child then never mentions it to anyone out of awkwardness, fear, embarrassment, shame, shock etc and so nobody ever knows it happened. Maybe it's a one off or maybe future incidents occur, either way, in that moment the damage is done and can't be undone.

OP just in case it's never occurred to you, not liking someone is enough of a reason to not allow them into your home or choosing not to spend any time with the person, regardless of who they are.

I don't think I berated the OP. It's hard to explain why a person might find it hard to break a pattern and maintain boundaries without pointing out the pattern and why. But for the record, none of it's OP's fault, it's all on grandpa.

Yes I get that, it's hard to deal with people like this and not get dragged back into old patterns.

And there is also the reality of the situation - he can't access her child. He may act like he can, he may believe he can, he may assert to her that he can, but the facts are that he has no rights.

Knowing that will make it easier to hold strong. It sounded a bit like you were berating OP for not defending her child and telling her she wouldn't do so in the future and the point I was making was that she is already defending her child and will continue to do so.

He's OP's father so in the past had a certain amount of power. But he's now a grandfather and grandparents don't have rights in the same way.

I wasn't talking about rights. I was talking about the psychology of it. Family dynamics are hard to change, especially with an abusive person in the mix. Logically you're right, but in practice people can still find it hard to break those patterns of behaviour such as freezing up, appeasing, or resist being gaslit and incidents minimised.

It's just something op needs to factor in.

He won't have a choice. He's OP's father so in the past had a certain amount of power. But he's now a grandfather and grandparents don't have rights in the same way.

He may not like it but given the OP has had one encounter, felt unsettled, asked for advice, talked to her husband who feels the same and like any normal parent has excellent instincts, I feel like he may have no choice in the matter.

The thing with difficult family members is you can really minimise the contact they have with your children simply by being busy, living far away and keeping visits short or in public places. And you can also warn the children in an age-appropriate way, not let them be alone with the child, and do nothing to nurture the relationship. It's sad but in this case I think it's really necessary.

You really need to be sure you can uphold these boundaries, because it's easy to say -but when actually in the presence of this man who emotionally abused your mum and you growing up, it'll be hard to do.

After all, neither you or your husband stepped in to make him let your dd go in that hour. And that's probably fear of him, fear of "making a scene", squishy/messed up boundaries from your childhood, fear of upsetting mum and so on.

It's really unlikely he'll quietly go along with the new boundaries.

OP, get ready to be accused of having a dirty mind and being a troublemaker but stand your ground.
The rest fo the family won't want to even consider this and you shining a spotlight on it (even in a low key way) will probably be met with backlash.
I know this from experience.