To think Michelle Keegan has incredible genes

Its 'Do as I say' not' 'Do as I Do' on this forum.... A mild comment on an ear is flagrant misogyny if uttered by a male in relation to a female!

I think DT has a unique vanity.

As for "critiquing women for their flaws while blind to their own" probably describes 99.9% of the people on this forum (except me of course as I am part of the 00.1% absolutely gorgeous natural perfection).

Also the man in question made the comments to his wife in private. He didn't say this publicly. And it sounded as though he was decompressing after spending the evening looking after celebs who took themselves far too seriously.

Maybe all men over a certain age think they're more gorgeous than they are and can critique women for their flaws while blind to their own...cue this from the orange one as if to prove the point . 😂

Hi, I just think that in picture 1 she was much younger and in picture 2 she is tanned, lots of make up with shading in cheeks, lipstick etc - yes you can tell she has had lip fillers in photo, but a lot can be achieved with good make up skills. I still think she was beautiful before and is just a lot more "glamorous" looking now. I prefer her natural look but she isn't the only woman or man feeling the need for surgery. It doesn't bother me - only when people deny having any. Shame people feel they need to but their business really.

Have to disagree, there have been suggested links to cancer with use of hair dyes, allergies, reactions. If you go onto a sunbed or in the sun to get a tan that is well known to be harmful. Most of us are fake to some degree even if its just putting on foundation. I'm not condemning anyone, I wouldn't leave the house most days without my foundation and mascara for fear of scaring young.children. It just seems s bit unfair that she is being critiqued the way she is.

Maybe we should be directing our ire at the unrealistic expectations that women have to live up to from men (and other women.). This is heavily influenced by the conditioning we experience from newspapers, magazines Internet, instagram, filters and Hollywood.
I'm especially fed up with portly rude men telling women they're fat and or ugly...Donald Trump are you listening ?

Oh, and FFS can we stop pretending that filler is the same as hair colour or nailpaint and asking where we draw the line? It's very clearly more harmful.

I really do like her natural look but she looks very, very glamorous now and I wish it was Michelle looking back at me when I venture to look in the mirror.

@SwissRollsRoyce

My point is, none of you discussing her looks need to. At all. You can't say you support women and publicly discuss their faces and how they achieved it on a public forum. She is a new mum, leave well alone.

Well I completely agree about discussing her looks. Pages and pages of dissecting someone's appearance is toxic and vacuous in the extreme.

But you've also failed to engage with the point about why people have written screeds and screeds about whether she's had surgery and why women feel the need to "augment" themselves while men don't?

As I've said before I don't blame her for doing it but you're missing the broader point which is that she is under huge pressure to do it while men aren't. That's a capsule definition of patriarchy for you right there. But you're dismissing this when other people mention it and saying you feel sorry for other people's daughters when they bring it up etc. Why can't you see that this is exactly what patriarchy is and why it undermines women?

Absolutely. We should be discussing the way fillers and Botox are being peddled to young women. Not pretending that these choices are made in a vacuum.

Obviously this is all subjective - but in that clip I see a pretty, heavily made-up girl, but nothing out of the ordinary way. And it’s still a very noticeable difference between then and now. Actually let’s face it, we don’t need to see a ‘before’ photo to see that she has a face full of fillers now do we.

As a teacher, you absolutely should discuss it because young people are seeing these impossible beauty standards and need to know they don't have to live up to them. The amount of lessons I have taught on body image and have 10 and 11 year olds talk negatively about themselves because they have big nose, a small chin or thin lips is crazy. So when they do talk about people they see on Instagram and how they look, I absolutely do point out that the famous person doesn't even look like that. I have shown them images of before and after surgery and before and after Photoshop to help them stop putting themselves under some impossible expectations. It is depressing to hear children talking about they can't wait to get fillers.

MK is beautiful but she looks the way she currently does because she has had plastic surgery. That is a fact.

Or a forum. Not friends on a forum...

Wish we could have unlimited edits...

The irony is they are getting this insta fake shit…from Instagram. Doctors who aren’t even ex plastic surgeons, nurse practitioners doing what have they had done videos. And listing every possible surgery imaginable and saying look how different they look. I haven’t had surgery but photos from different angles, lighting, makeup, look vastly did to when I was 17 to now a similar age to Michelle. Michelle looks to me, to have the same facial structure and anatomy. Her nose looks to be the only think surgically changed as the bridge is thinner, and she’s had a tasteful amount of upper lip filler, so when she smiles, the top lip doesn’t curl under now it’s fuller, but sits more balanced and projected on her teeth. That was such a good point. Where do you draw the line of natural? Natural hair colour. Makeup.

What harm is being done discussing this privately between partners, and friends on a forum... Other cultures have no issues. I know other cultures openly discuss this subject... It's a British mannerism, similar to no sex, please.

Are people blind, go anywhere in Europe for example there are thousands of objectively pretty women(Non-actresses) and handsome men for example....

No, it's not bollocks because I really am not jealous of her. There are women that I am jealous of but she is not one of them. At one time I may have been but, as I said, I now don't think she is that attractive and yes I do think she looks ordinary.

Maybe she is somehow made to look less attractive in Ten Pound Poms although I doubt it but she definitely looks very different.

In real life I am a nice person although undoubtedly you won't believe that but I don't feel the need to lie and say someone is beautiful when, to me, they are not. I think Meghan is stunningly beautiful but I know, obviously, not everyone does

I am attractive yes, maybe I'm just lucky to be content with my natural looks. I plan to grow old with my own natural face and hopefully not be bothered by wrinkles and age spots.

Who has said that MK is "less than"? Why do you keep on making things up to make your (imaginary) points?

I would be horrified if my dd's had plastic surgery - doesn't mean I wouldn't love them, don't be silly.

Have you had plastic surgery and that's why you're getting so upset?

You do not have automatic rights to put down how they look just because it isn't natural

Of course people have the right to discuss it becoming the norm for women to have plastic surgery and how this is damaging to women and girls - another silly comment. Dying your hair and applying makeup is hardly same as going under the surgeons knife is it? Don't be disingenuous.

A truly classy woman wouldn't describe others in this way, naturally beautiful or not.

Oh I've never claimed to be classy!

I think MK is very attractive btw - I've never said she isn't. But I still wish she hadn't felt the need to go under the surgeons knife. I think it's a shame as she was very pretty before.

My point is, none of you discussing her looks need to. At all. You can't say you support women and publicly discuss their faces and how they achieved it on a public forum. She is a new mum, leave well alone.

Arghhh my point is it's one thst doesn't need to be shared. What gain is there? None. What harm is there? Potentially quite a bit. Just shut up?

@SwissRollsRoyce

I feel very sorry for your DD's, going on about patriarchy is just a way mean girls justify their bullying by trying to intellectualise it.

Tell us you don't understand patriarchy without saying you don't understand patriarchy.

I don't think you've understood what @Azureshores is saying at all. She's not "slagging off" Michelle Keegan or anyone else, she's saying its very noticeable that its almost exclusively women who feel they have to go under the knife to fit what society's definition of "beautiful" is and asking you to consider why that should be.

For the record I have nothing against Michelle Keegan (who I think is very attractive) and nothing against people who have plastic surgery or any other kind of beauty procedure. Lots of people in entertainment do this, it's to some extent expected in that trade and if it enables them to work for longer and maximise their income then let them crack on. I wouldn't judge anyone for doing it.

But by the same token its reasonable to ask why society/the entertainment industry puts so much pressure on women that so many of them feel they need to do this. It's depressing. It's also depressing that we've had pages and pages of people discussing her looks and whether or not she's had plastic surgery and almost no discussion of her talent or personality.

Isn't this a distinctly British way of being polite? Everyone is described as pretty or beautiful, etc. However, the average British woman is not seen as conventionally attractive on a global scale. This is something DP and I discussed earlier this week. For instance, Michelle Keegan was not considered model-looking during her late teenage years, yet she is regarded as a standard of beauty in this thread......

It's an objective view...

Let’s be honest, the ‘aspirational’ look as per celeb land has always been borderline impossible for most women to achieve since forever.

How many women looked like Marilyn Monroe in the 50s? Although she was a natural beauty, even Marilyn didn’t start out looking Marilyn. She had chin surgery for example plus access to the best hair and make up people. Women back then were even eating tapeworms to stay thin.

The difference is we now know the celebs are having work done and the treatments are more accessible. Now, just like back then, people don’t have to follow, but if some people do, it doesn’t mean society is falling apart.

Not having Botox and fillers doesn’t make you a better person, it just means you aren’t in to that stuff.

Didn't say how you'd feel if this comment section was about you in all that back peddling...

Id probably think "well it's obvious some people won't like the plastic surgery I've had and think I looked better before as it's quite a contentious topic."
I don't generally care about other peoples opinions about me, apart from the people I love. And if MK likes how she looks and is happy in her choices she won't care either way I should think.

The point is that women can do whatever they like to their own faces and they shouldn't have to justify themselves or be deemed less than by people like you because they aren't naturally the way they present at certain points in their life. You do not have automatic rights to put down how they look just because it isn't natural. There's lots of things that aren't natural- have you ever worn makeup? Dyed your hair? Cut your hair? Bought nice clothes you don't need but want to make you feel good? You don't make the rules about what people can and can't do to themselves and you definitely don't have the right to judge them for it. Terms like "insta-fake" are cringey, nasty and downright rubbish vocabulary. A truly classy woman wouldn't describe others in this way, naturally beautiful or not.

Re your daughters, you literally said you'd be horrified basically if they made choices about their own looks and bodies that aren't your preference and even described yourself as lucky that the conform to what you do approve of, hence my strong pity for them.

Are you incredibly pretty?

It's a shame you don't seem to understand the points people are making about how letting girls think putting themselves on the surgeons block as the beauty ideal to aspire to in society isn't a good thing.

If you like the insta-fake look that's up to you - I prefer natural beauty and so do most other people. And what on earth are you talking about re your last point? Where did you get from what I said that I wouldn't love my dd's if they had surgery? Bringing your children up to love themselves warts and all by instilling confidence and teaching them that brains and personality are more important than looks - which are fleeting - is very important. Don't you agree?

I don't think you understand the meaning of "Patriarchy" if you think it is something "mean girls" say to make their point 🤔