DS works on a 15 hour min contract at Coffee shop- how available does he need to be every weekend ?

I remember a similar situation many moons ago when I was a student. I went away anyway, think I feigned sickness not realizing it was totally obvious as I'd already asked for the time off. Result? My zero hours contract remained at zero hours pretty much permanently. ie they sacked me without sacking me.

If he goes anyway, he'll likely lose the job

your DS will be sick that weekends anyway 😉

The manager has left enough capacity! Thats literally why the DS’s request has been refused.

As others have said, he should have mentioned before signing, he already had a commitment that weekend. Then it would be honoured.

However, between them, my dc have worked in dozens of PT jobs like this and people swap all the time. He needs to find out how people do this. Typically a WhatsApp Group. There are always some staff who are looking for extra hours, or some that are just very flexible about when they work, and others who will, to help him out. (He of course needs to be willing to cover someone else later).

How on earth has he managed to get to this age without knowing this ?

Is there a group chat? My dc was McDonalds zero hours. You got your rota a week in advance and if you wanted to switch or drop a shift she had to sort it. If it wasn’t taken people would put money on so £10 to take my shift.

She’s asking for advice for her son. People ask for advice for their friends too, for their parents sometimes. HTH.

How can he swap shifts when no shifts have been rota'd?

Unless everyone but the minimum staffing levels have booked/requested that week off I guess, in which case there's nobody to swap with.

Honestly OP I'd just tell him to be honest with his manager that he won't be in that day regardless, and start applying for other jobs.

Your son dropped the ball. He should have told them the holiday was booked not just assumed. It's also in the kids easter holidays here so full time staff probably booked a week or two off

It is his problem as we have seen it can cause his holiday request to be denied.

That's not the DS problem, that scenario would be the fault of the manager for not leaving additional capacity within his rota to cover for things like unexpected unavailability of staff, sickness, etc.

Yes but he can't rota people in who are already booked off. Let's pretend he has 6 members of staff and needs 2 at work at any one time. 4 have booked the weekend off. Even if he hasn't done the rota yet he only has 2 peope he can rota in on those days. Wether he has written it down yet or not is irrelevant.

I totally agree.

I could understand the manager being pissed off if the DS has waited until the rota was done and then had said "oh I can't work these days". However, the manager has had plenty of notice and basically all that's being requested is for the DS' contracted hours to be on any other day that week. If they run Sunday to Sunday like a lot of retail did when I worked in it then he'd still be doing a weekend shift that week as he could do the Sunday the weekend before.

It annoys me when bosss put the onus on the staff to cover (swap) shifts. It should be the responsibility of the manager.

My grandad died Between Xmas and new year. I was 18 and working in a pub, and we travelled home for a night (500 mile round trip) to get funeral clothes etc. I went into work to explain the situation and the manager told me that if I wasn’t there for my shifts, not to come back.

I anonymously reported him to Customs and Excise for watering down the booze. When I went in after the funeral to drop my uniform in, the C+E inspectors were there (they are NOT subtle). He was prosecuted and jailed.

The start of my career based on “fuck around and find out”. :)

Same and part of the reason I hated working in retail when I was younger, too many employers were unable to tell the difference between 'server' and 'servant".

People saying about asking for swaps, IME I very much doubt anyone will! Unless there is some other extenuating circumstance.

Hospitality staff relish weekends off and unless it is a huge shop there won't be so many staff anyway. Some of who will have already booked it off for things equally important to them.

This. I remember having this when I worked retail after graduating. I was so stressed about not getting time off for an important family event. In the end I persuaded manager not to rota me on (basically the same as swapping shifts just done in advance!) and got it off. Now I look back and think I would never allow a job to have that much of a hold over my personal time again.

I didn't say it was law that they can't refuse. I said "should" not "must".

https://www.acas.org.uk/checking-holiday-entitlement/asking-for-and-taking-holiday

the employer should only refuse if there is a good business reason for doing so.

there is nothing in law supporting this for annual leave.

But the manager hasn't done the rota for that week yet so, even if he can't give annual leave, he could just rota the DS in on days other than those three.

@MugsyBalonz For notice, he only needs to give twice as much time as the time he wants to take off. So if he wants three days then, legally, he is only required to give six days notice. He's given a lot more than that, the rota hasn't been done yet for that week, and the employer should only refuse if there is a good business reason for doing so.

Just because you only need to give a certain amount of notice based on your contract doesn’t make the date more available. The employer has stated the allowed number of people have already booked it off which is obviously the good business reason for declining the request.

I’m confused why your son did not flag this period of unavailability at the point of accepting the job? Discussing booked leave is pretty standard at job interviews or when being offered a role.

Your son will need to try to swap shifts with other employees. If he can’t find someone to cover his shift, he’ll just need to be upfront with his employer, and ultimately be prepared to lose the job if he’s not prepared to miss the wedding.

There is a good business reason for declining. Other staff already have it booked off.

For notice, he only needs to give twice as much time as the time he wants to take off. So if he wants three days then, legally, he is only required to give six days notice. He's given a lot more than that, the rota hasn't been done yet for that week, and the employer should only refuse if there is a good business reason for doing so.

He needs to speak to his manager and point out that he's given plenty of notice and that the rota has not been done. He should explain he doesn't know the other staff enough yet to ask about shift swaps. He could emphasise that he's available any other day that week and the week after, just not those particular three days, he could also throw them an offer of doing the late/early shift on one of those days where he is available. Any decent manager would be reasonable in the circumstances especially when they haven't actually allocated the shifts yet.

Ultimately, if he really wants to go to the wedding and it's a non-negotiable, then he would just have to put his four weeks notice in and start looking for a new job in the interim.

Hours per week doesn’t mean anything in this context. If there are no specific days mentioned then yes, he can be expected to work those hours across any days of the week.