To wonder if all those gleeful about PIP cuts are going to welcome people with serious mental health conditions as colleagues and employees?

Yes it’s very naive. If it were possible to get more out of the corporations we would do it, but they are very sophisticated at avoiding tax and if you tax them too much they pick up and go elsewhere. In general, there is a limit to how much you can tax people without starting to actually lose money and our tax burden is already huge.

A second point though is on the principle. Do we think it’s right that a quarter of the adult population is not self-supporting? At what point would it be too much? What if half the population relied on benefits?

Yes I agree. I'm classed as disabled and am employed, I have ASD, ADHD and also have a history of anxiety, depression and self harm. My employer is flexible and I work part time, I'm wfh today as I woke up and couldn't go in and all I had to do was message that I'd be wfh today and that was fine as I make the effort to go in when I can (I was in yesterday). There are lots of ND colleagues at my work and also with other disabilities too. Many employers are flexible when you are open and honest with them, work effectively and make the effort when you can, and are a generally good employee. I do hope that those who really can't work at all will be protected and keep PIP and other benefits, but I also think cuts are necessary for those with less severe disabilities.

Unfortunately some of those people who are gleeful about the cuts (not many but there are a few) may well end up needing them in the future as things can often go downhill health wise as you get older. It won’t be many but to some it will happen.

Took me 51 years to be diagnosed with hip dysplasia. That is fixed by a replacement but menopause has made the psoriatic arthritis I had for 20 years very active and is eroding my joints in places despite being on medication. I went from running 10k to being pretty much housebound and barely being able to get the toilet in the space of 3 years.

So easy to think it will never happen to you and that you have aches and pains but get on with things and don’t let the, stop you doing things - until they suddenly do.

Some people had to leave the workforce because it made their MH worse. And those same people can and do have routines that is not paid employment.

I know a few people who have effectively been allowed to be out of work for decades for anxiety/depression, ignoring the cost of this enabling them to stay at home I don't think this helps them

so you have training in psychiatry/psychology/psychotherapy and appropriate clinical experience to be able to say, definitively, that these people you know would be better off working from a health perspective?

With the incredible growth Keir Starmer promised all the gullible voters

Some of us did warn people what a labour government & Keir Starmer would be like but no one wanted to listen

But many people are able to contribute significantly despite various difficulties with adjustments and support

Except who wants an employee who maybe unwell on a regular basis, who has to attend hospital appointments on a regular basis, needs a nap in the middle of the day to get by,....and a whole host of stuff I haven't thought of because I don't have a good knowledge of all the possible debilitating conditions a person can suffer with. 'Reasonable adjustments' are sometimes possible - ramp to get in the office, disabled toilet, time off for appointments....but you are no good to an employer if you've not been taking your medication and are actively psychotic, are you?

I wonder if some of the people would find their mental health improves if they have the routine of work. I appreciate that this isn’t a one size fits all approach but it may work for some and is at least worth a try 🤷‍♀️ Some people may be surprised and start feeling less anxious if they’ve got a bit more money and have a holiday to look forward to rather than sitting alone gaming all day, moaning that they’re skint.

Oh so that's what the euthanasia bill was about? Jolly government this.

Yes!

My daughter has Tourette’s (as well as Autism and FND) - you can imagine the length of the in queue of employers willing to give her a job.

But it’s ok, she’s never claimed PIP - the lady on the phone when she rang up to ask for the forms was so unbelievably vile to her that she burst into tears and has refused to try again.

But PIP is easy to claim right?

I work hard and have done for many years. During this time I have had periods of depression and anxiety and I am also a carer. When you say tax the rich I think you actually mean anyone but you. And most likely me. I earn well. I think I pay enough tax as it is and I want to fund my own decent retirement. The IFS data notes that sickness benefits in the UK are growing disproportionately in the Uk compared to elsewhere. People in the UK are not sicker than elsewhere in Europe. A number of people who can work are choosing not to work and I do not want to fund this. Getting a job will help your depression and anxiety. Sitting at home and doing little will make it worse.

Quite simply, the rich will not pay. Far too many options to protect wealth.

I don't think they will in most workplaces, no. But they need to change and its in everyone's interests for employers to do this.

I do also think these threads often miss than most mental health problems are episodic. Someone may have periods of life where they can't work but for most this won't be their whole working life, which the system currently supports. For most (not all) it will be therapeutic to do some work in some form, I know a few people who have effectively been allowed to be out of work for decades for anxiety/depression, ignoring the cost of this enabling them to stay at home I don't think this helps them. For both of these people I think it is more that they are unhappy with the options on offer: minimum wage work in a supermarket or a similar lifestyle without working.

Admittedly this may not apply to schizophrenia/bipolar disorder which can impact long term functioning, but I work in mental health and have had colleagues with these diagnoses and they've been fab.

There's so much ableism on these threads. Loads of your colleagues will be disabled but don't disclose it to you. I've been surprised at how often I've disclosed mental/physical disability in the workplace and colleagues have responded by sharing their own issues.

You can work with all sorts of serious MH and PH conditions. Loads of us do. Not all of us can. But all this bullshit about 'no one wants to employ them!' is just ableism.

And maybe anyone writing this stuff should think about how THEY could become an inclusive employer, or encourage their own employer to do so?

This!
Alongside they can get back to working or find a job AS LONG AS ITS NOT MY WORKPLACE so the inevitable sick leave / reasonable adjustments dont impact me .

@Slimbear

deemed by people who have little or no knowledge of how conditions affect people in real life.

I've been supporting my neighbour who has medical and mental health issues with her PIP review.
She received zero points.
I won't go into too much detail as it's her information not mine but four of the reasons cited were

• she bought her own walking stick and seat to sit in the shower, they were not 'prescribed'
• there is no evidence of abandoned journeys in the last 5 years, therefore she can plan and make journeys. But that's because she is housebound and hasn't been anywhere since lockdown
• there is no evidence of falls - well she lives alone so there wouldn't be any witnesses but I've seen the bruises.
• she can manage her money. She can't, she's been ripped off by 'builders ' who take money and don't turn up. Her daughter inlaw does her food shop. I've just sorted out all her bills because she was in serious arrears.

My seriously schizophrenic older brother has never worked, he recently had his pip stopped (as my older sister discovered) probably due to him not filling g out the forms. He doesn't want to appeal it even though my sister could easily get it reinstated for him. He will now likely struggle horribly as he is in no fit state to work, he lives in his own world and no one really understands him

A very sensible approach that would be likely to yield some good results and be a win-win in terms of cost savings to the public purse while also actually helping people out of MH problems and into work and a higher income.

Very unlikely to actually happen when the government can just wield a big stick more easily.

It might be pointless to you but it won’t be pointless to the people this will affect negatively.
So dismissive of you

What a sensible post. There are complex reasons some people struggle into work (usually in a workplace which pays lip service to making 'accomodations' but does nothing of the sort & even if it does this causes much resentment amongst other staff). The reasons can be physical, mental or a combination.

An approach which provides real, tailoured, achieveable opportunities sounds great, coupled with being able to return to benefits if it proves not possible (so people are not scared to try). The Govt seem to be making noises about this. But MUCH bigger noises about 'deserving workers' vs 'the undeserving'.
£5BN of cuts from the most vulnerable. FIVE BILLION from the most vulnerable.

You'll still qualify for the mobility element though won't you?

This is very true. Someone who's PIP benefit enables them to purchase an adapted car for example, can work in an environment where WFH is not allowed.
Take that PIP away, the car is unaffordable and the job is impossible to get to.

Of course! I expect the government have a risk assessment somewhere that says X amount of people who die as a direct result and Y amount of people will suffer harm. And they will be seen as collateral damage.

I think it could result in crime too, not just work place issues.

Yep my dd aged 22 is in this position. Graduate, applying for everything from working in Tesco to bar work to graduate jobs (she studied criminology) and can’t get anything other than 2 days a week at a bar (no extra hours to be had). There just aren’t jobs around everywhere for everyone, even those without disabilities. Her best friend who studied English literature is currently working 10 hours a week in Boots.