Too harsh on ND child?

These kids need more scaffolding than most. What you want is unremarkable - a fully operational teen - but it is touch and go for many of these young people. Some will just drop out and stay at home and sleep and play video games, others will get into trouble....we can't just push them into situations they can't handle.

There is no evidence that a "tough love" approach offers the scaffolding these kids need. I mean, you can keep trying it, but chances are it won't work.

My daughters are 25 and 27 now and took much longer than other kids to get to the pretty ok place they are both at now.

They benefitted from more not less emotional and practical support.

Very interesting thread.

Avoid creating situations that are likely to lead to bad behaviour and arguments Yes, this means a quieter life, but won’t it mean that the child will be unprepared when he is in a similar situation outside his home? For ex as a teen sitting in the cinema with his friends. Isn’t it better to learn at home first, where people will always love you, than avoid the situation for an easy life?

(please don’t think I’m being sarcastic, this is a debate I’m having my DH about our ASD son and I’m genuinely interested)

I didn't say they were never rude or badly behaved. I am suggesting am alternative way to come at the behaviour. Sometimes it will indeed require a chastisement of some sort. A time out even. But if done from a non exasperated place by the parent it will come across as helpful, not draconian. You can't turn things round in a day but imo the OP needs a change of perspective and that is what I am suggesting.

Yes, I agree with this. I got the "arguing with your child" vibe too from op's post.

It certainly is trying op. I had to give myself a 'time out' yesterday, because I could feel myself getting irritated. I was so drained and lucky to have dh to take over. Ds loops, has no regard for his own volume, or the personal space of others (which we're actively working on), and at times he'll talk nonstop; it is exhausting.

Hugs to all of you ND Mums; we're all doing the best we know how, and striving to improve. I'm always researching ideas to help ds; dcs are all different, and I've experienced a lot of trial and error. I feel that I'm finally making a little progress with the positive reinforcement, recognising the early signs that ds is overwhelmed, because it can go 0-100 fast and melt down mode is not easy to alleviate.

I have recently set some house rules, which he is a fan of (I was fearful they wouldn't go down well, so this was surprising). I am trying to make ds feel that he has some control where possible. I askee him if he agrees with a (rule i know he'll like) or if he thinks I could change it. This worked well. They are straight to the point, very literal, and have a couple of simple pics/hearts on to make him feel it is from a place of warmth for all of us. He has pointed out that one of my rules isn't quite right and told me how to rectify it, he isn't wrong either! 😂

Ds is in a heightened state after school, so I now know to choose my words carefully on our way home, and let him talk. I have to balance it with attention for my NT child and reply to ds to show he is heard, then say "I'll just ask dc2 about his day now then come back to you again." Everything needs to get so slow, calm and he needs ample warning of what is coming next.
When he does something wrong, I remind him of what he is supposed to do. For example "Oh, we are always so kind and sensible, do you want to come talk about it somewhere quiet with <insert name of cuddly toy>? you can remind me too, because I messed up the other day." This has resulted in a much better response from him, than any punishment ever has. He will repeat similar to his little brother when he makes a mistake. I find using "we", not singling him out helps him feel less shame as well.

@Arran2024 Speaking as an ND adult who was a ND child, just because someone is ND doesn’t mean they are never rude or badly behaved. Not everything needs to be reframed. That’s not actually a helpful model in terms of learning to cope in the adult world.

My audhd similarly winds up sibling. Its mainly when waiting so queuing for theme parks i have to separate them. But also the car.
maybe try to estimate how long till he gets bored so tv onky 30 min programs etc.
he probably does feel you favour her.
i think ideally 1-2-1time with each. And them being together more like a playdate for younger kids so realising its too much after 1-2 hours

i actually have one get up much earlier than the other as eldest gets distracted in the mornings

I suggest that you refrain his "bad behaviour", "rudeness" etc as him having exceeded his ability to cope and him looking for solutions, and specifically looking for you to help him.

If you see his behaviour as a cry for help rather than a personal failing or attack on you, you will automatically respond from a better, more helpful place.

My daughter has PDA and used to tantrum loads. When she was diagnosed, I realised that her "tantrums" were actually panic attacks and what she needed was support, not punishment etc, and just this change in understanding was utterly transformative for us.

And so I offer you this one piece of advice - just try coming from a place of compassion for his struggle in that moment and see how this automatically changes how you handle it.

OK here's another two suggestions:

1. sensory diet - if you can afford it, get him assessed by a sensory integration therapist, who will give you a tailored programme of activities, exercises, foods which will help.

2. take part in a parenting class for parents with a ND child - these can be really helpful in terms of letting you explore why you are doing what you are doing and giving you the go ahead to try new things.

I don't think it's harsh and I don't think it's inevitable for ND children to make a pest of themselves.

I agree with others that coming of his medication is obviously not working for him. I also find that the side effects get better the longer I consistently take it and get worse after a break. If he's building up a tolerance then the titration team should increase the dose until he reaches a plateau.

The only issue with the punishment is that now you've taken the ipad for 2 weeks, what's the next step if he behaves badly next weekend? Extending the time is unlikely to mean much to him as ADHD includes very poor time perception.

I would not tolerate disrespect (and never did from my ADHD/ASD stepdaughter). If she spoke to me rudely I'd tell her to try again to phrase what she had to say politely and if she persisted then she had to go somewhere else until she was ready to use her manners.

https://www.instagram.com/p/DHRByY1JLOx/?igsh=Y2gzcnA5Yml3ODFt

I think it's really normal for all kinds to struggle with entertaining themselves now. It's something you have to learn to do. Back in the day we all did it from a young age, but now many kids have never had to. So while it may be a bigger struggle for an ND child, in many ways it's a normal leaning curve for any kid suddenly thrown on their own resources.

One of the great things about kids with things like ADHD who are very motivated to action is there is potentiality to actually accomplish a lot. They aren't, by nature, lazy, though tech addiction can sometimes create that impression. But they need some kinds of activities that respond well to sometimes obsessive focus.

For some it's sports, and maybe think about something they could do at home, like boxing - it's possible to practice shadow boxing, or have punching bag, for home time use. I think another great option is a musical instrument which rewards obsession. I might start with something that will allow quick rewards, like the ukulele.

But before all that, what about things like Lego, or Tinker toys? Or would she be interested in making clay miniatures, or bracelets? Something that requires focus, but isn't too hard right at the beginning, and there is scaffolding. But luckily entertaining oneself gets a lot easier with practice.

@ParrotParty
Can I ask what you have replaced the screen time with on a school day please?

Our ADHD DD(age9) wants to watch TV on iPad all the time. It does help her regulate/zone out after school (where she masks all day) but she can be awful after screen time (not always). So I would like to try reducing it and see if that's better or worse. The problem is at that time of day if she isn't doing a planned activity (like swimming lesson etc) she would want me to play with her constantly and that makes dinner or sorting out anything her siblings needs very difficult. She isn't great at playing by herself and hates being in a room by herself so I can't get her to play in her room or in the lounge unless I go with her.

I need to find something that's regulating or dopamine-giving to replace screen time with that doesn't need my constant input/presence and that can't get out of hand (e.g. she likes making a massive mess with paint or making potions etc but that's tricky if I am trying to make dinner or whatever else).

We have limited what she can do with her screen time (e.g.kids YouTube is school holidays only, 20 mins per day; iPad games are weekends only, 20 mins at a time etc) so it's mostly watching familiar TV shows on repeat, whilst also doing something with her hands like drawing or tearing some paper or mixing cornflour and water etc). But I would really like to try less time overall on screens.
Thanks for any ideas!

I think you are absolutely right to be consistent about behaviour that impacts others OP. Someone up thread mentioned redirecting early on which I think is the most likely strategy to head things off early on.

I think tech stuff actually exacerbates the problems ADHD kids have, and in fact a lot of kids - it's basically a dopamine dispensing device, like those gambling machines in bars. It further trains the brain to expect easy stimulation. So I would not hesitate to restrict it and maybe actually just keep it absolutely minimal all the time. In my experience getting rid of it, after about a week, produces significant improvements. It's hard in that it's not there as a parental relief but IMO worth it.

Half agree with this - we do home made pizza and movie night every Friday and ours loves knowing he’s got that to look forward to each week, and that we go swimming every weekend. However, if we are doing a ‘special’ activity then we can’t tell him until we are going as otherwise he obsesses about it until it’s time to go and is angry every day that it’s not yet time to do the fun activity…

So just adding that it depends on the kid and what you’re doing! But absolutely agree having some structure and routine and lots of physical activity really helps.

You’re absolutely doing the right thing. He has to learn not to engage in negative behaviours; ADHD isn’t an excuse to upset others. You’re actually being a good parent by not letting it become one.

(And before the inevitable accusation: I am ND myself. I don’t think that’s incompatible with being a considerate member of society.)

I think you were too harsh op. Far too harsh.

I've got two ND. One really benefits from regulation via switch building type games (Minecraft etc). The other regulates via real life building Lego. If either tries to do the other thing for long it's worse not better.

When I was a kid I regulated via watching tv and playing games on computer too. I'm early 40s and I suspect AuDHD.

My older likely ND relatives seemed to all be obsessed with knitting or similar. My grandad did woodwork to an extreme.

I suspect ND people have always had obsessive activities. These have just changed over time. It's about finding imes that help regulate not the opposite.

Placemarking - this is a really valuable thread

I never understood this blanket tech helps them regulate thing. Not for my autistic ten year old. The overstimulation can turn him into a monster and wind up merchant. So we limit it, especially YouTube and Switch. Not so much just general TV programmes as that seems to be ok.

I appreciate how hard it is and I think your handling it brilliantly. I think you also have the patience of a saint if you have to put up with this via your DH having ADHD too. Make sure you're looking after yourself!

I think sport and activity - and a lot of it - at weekends, too. And activities planned ahead so he gets to anticipate them. E.g. you know from start of the week that you're all going to the cinema that Saturday evening.

There’s a difference between a consequence for behaviour and then a parent out of control and that’s what you have described here. You both lost control “having the last word” tells me you were at that point just having a row with your child. Warning consequence fine. Expecting him to not have a reaction. Unreasonable.

Actually see how his behaviour is for 2 weeks without the iPad. My daughter suspected adhd and is on the pathway at school. Her behaviour is so so much worse when she is allowed it. Same for too much tv. She basically doesn’t know how to entertain herself so will start winding everyone up etc obviously she does do this anyway but she is 10x as bad with technology. Whenever I’m lax about it I see her behaviour change so much- I’m also not even talking a lot of tech I mean like an hour of iPad etc she is worse. Tech is a very quick way to cure her boredom and get a dopamine hit but in the longrun it has the opposite effect

Winding his sister up could suggest boredom. Was he watching something of his choice or your choice? I have one diagnosed ASD child and one suspected one… when they start winding each other up I usually try to distract and find an alternative activity for them.

By ''punishment'' I don't mean physical punishment - but things like ''not doing a favourite activity for an hour or so.