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US democracy is about to die

260 replies

StandFirm · 16/03/2025 13:03

... So many indicators for this, the most recent is Trump calling for the DoJ to go after his enemies:

Dear American friends, I hope you find a peaceful way out of this. As for us here, I can only hope we keep the contagion at bay.

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YourAmberPoet · 16/03/2025 20:47

SilverDoe · 16/03/2025 20:40

This is pretty ignorant. Regimes can, do, and have changed throughout history.

The idea that modern western democracy is impervious to any influence is exactly the type of thinking that has led to this situation. People think everything will be okay because things can't change that much!

Trump openly admires and covets the idea of dictatorship. I'm hoping that this will die with him, but who will be his Republican successor? Will too much have irrevocably changed by the end of his

Before jumping to conclusions, take a moment to study my previous posts. I’ve never claimed democracy is unshakable quite the opposite. The strength of U.S. democracy lies in its ability to withstand pressure, adapt, and endure. History proves regimes can change, but it also proves resilient institutions push back. Trump’s rhetoric is one thing; the system’s response is another. The real question isn’t whether democracy can be challenged it’s whether it can hold. And so far, it has.

SilverDoe · 16/03/2025 20:40

YourAmberPoet · 16/03/2025 18:31

Cancer? Please. Democracy has survived wars, corruption, assassinations, and enough scandals to make the devil blush. It doesn’t wither at the first sign of a tumour it adapts, fights back, and outlives the ones who think they can bring it down.

Swift action? Of course. But panic is the enemy of strategy. The so-called horde may be loud, but noise is not power. Real power lies in institutions, in laws, in the slow, grinding gears of the system. If you think democracy is on its deathbed, you underestimate just how deep its roots go. The republic doesn’t fall because of a single man or a fleeting movement. It endures because it was built to withstand them.

This is pretty ignorant. Regimes can, do, and have changed throughout history.

The idea that modern western democracy is impervious to any influence is exactly the type of thinking that has led to this situation. People think everything will be okay because things can't change that much!

Trump openly admires and covets the idea of dictatorship. I'm hoping that this will die with him, but who will be his Republican successor? Will too much have irrevocably changed by the end of his

YourAmberPoet · 16/03/2025 20:39

HangryLilacGoose · 16/03/2025 20:34

To preface: I don't mean to badger you too much, nor trash the US - I think we're having a good and reasonable discussion where we do not fully agree but, equally, I feel that we're not miles apart.

I do not think that the US's democracy is a particularly strong one. I'd point to The Economists Democracy Index which, since 2016, has ranked the US as a "Flawed Democracy" (for clarity, despite the year of publication, not directly linked to Trump).

There's a good graphic here, with a slider that allows you to see changes in the Index over time: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/democracy-index-eiu?time=2016 (which shows that the backsliding of democracies is not isolated to the US). It will be interesting (perhaps terrifying) to see how the US scores in the coming couple of years.

Polarization and gridlock, election integrity, executive overreach and judicial impartiality were areas where the US's democracy was already performing relatively poorly in comparison to "Full Democracies". At least 3.5 of those issues are becoming far more acute (I'm counting the front half of "polarization and gridlock") and new issues have since emerged.

I cannot stress enough how much I want to see your democracy hold (and improve), not least because of the importance of US in relation to democracies around the world. Alarm bells are loudly ringing and I just want to ensure they are heard.

The U.S. democracy isn’t perfect no democracy is but it’s resilient.

HangryLilacGoose · 16/03/2025 20:34

YourAmberPoet · 16/03/2025 19:53

Yes, democracies have fallen before, but what makes the U.S. different is that it has a much more robust, diverse, and decentralized power structure than those other systems

To preface: I don't mean to badger you too much, nor trash the US - I think we're having a good and reasonable discussion where we do not fully agree but, equally, I feel that we're not miles apart.

I do not think that the US's democracy is a particularly strong one. I'd point to The Economists Democracy Index which, since 2016, has ranked the US as a "Flawed Democracy" (for clarity, despite the year of publication, not directly linked to Trump).

There's a good graphic here, with a slider that allows you to see changes in the Index over time: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/democracy-index-eiu?time=2016 (which shows that the backsliding of democracies is not isolated to the US). It will be interesting (perhaps terrifying) to see how the US scores in the coming couple of years.

Polarization and gridlock, election integrity, executive overreach and judicial impartiality were areas where the US's democracy was already performing relatively poorly in comparison to "Full Democracies". At least 3.5 of those issues are becoming far more acute (I'm counting the front half of "polarization and gridlock") and new issues have since emerged.

I cannot stress enough how much I want to see your democracy hold (and improve), not least because of the importance of US in relation to democracies around the world. Alarm bells are loudly ringing and I just want to ensure they are heard.

Democracy index

Based on the expert estimates and index by the Economist Intelligence Unit (2006-2024). It combines information on the extent to which citizens can choose their political leaders in free and fair elections, enjoy civil liberties, prefer democracy over...

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/democracy-index-eiu?time=2016

kattaduck · 16/03/2025 20:31

GinAndJuice99 · 16/03/2025 16:46

There’s a politics board for this sort of thing. Most people don’t want to see it on AIBU and you should respect that

Oh honey if this is too much for you maybe stick to threads that talk about mother's day arrangements.
Don't trouble your women brain with big political talk 😉

StartEngine · 16/03/2025 20:22

YourAmberPoet · 16/03/2025 20:00

This action is alarming, but it doesn't signal the collapse of our institutions.

If only it weren’t a singular action.

StartEngine · 16/03/2025 20:21

GinAndJuice99 · 16/03/2025 16:46

There’s a politics board for this sort of thing. Most people don’t want to see it on AIBU and you should respect that

I wouldn’t speak for us all, it’s still a democracy here 😊 I actually think this is too important to hide in a corner somewhere. It impacts us all.

Flamingfeline · 16/03/2025 20:01

YourAmberPoet · 16/03/2025 20:00

This action is alarming, but it doesn't signal the collapse of our institutions.

Let’s hope you’re right for the sake of all of us.

YourAmberPoet · 16/03/2025 20:00

Flamingfeline · 16/03/2025 19:58

It’s not coming over as particularly robust at the moment, however well designed. Planes taking people out of the country to detention in San Salvador were ordered by the judiciary to turn around today. They didn’t.

This action is alarming, but it doesn't signal the collapse of our institutions.

Flamingfeline · 16/03/2025 19:58

YourAmberPoet · 16/03/2025 19:53

Yes, democracies have fallen before, but what makes the U.S. different is that it has a much more robust, diverse, and decentralized power structure than those other systems

It’s not coming over as particularly robust at the moment, however well designed. Planes taking people out of the country to detention in San Salvador were ordered by the judiciary to turn around today. They didn’t.

YourAmberPoet · 16/03/2025 19:53

HangryLilacGoose · 16/03/2025 19:44

None of these things are unique to the US, and have existed in democracies that have fallen.

I wish you well in your fight to preserve democracy but I do think that you are showing a little bit of naivety that is rooted in American exceptionalism

BUT, I will meet you half way and say that I am being a premature and hyperbolic in declaring US democracy "dead". "Under significant and unprecedented attack" would be a fairer description.

Yes, democracies have fallen before, but what makes the U.S. different is that it has a much more robust, diverse, and decentralized power structure than those other systems

HangryLilacGoose · 16/03/2025 19:44

YourAmberPoet · 16/03/2025 19:20

The real safeguard against such a scenario is the collective will of the people and their elected representatives. Public opinion, political pressure, and the mechanisms of impeachment and removal from office are tools designed to address abuses of power.

None of these things are unique to the US, and have existed in democracies that have fallen.

I wish you well in your fight to preserve democracy but I do think that you are showing a little bit of naivety that is rooted in American exceptionalism

BUT, I will meet you half way and say that I am being a premature and hyperbolic in declaring US democracy "dead". "Under significant and unprecedented attack" would be a fairer description.

PleaseDontFingerMyPouffe · 16/03/2025 19:39

The opposition must do what it has always done when facing an administration that overreaches: use every tool available, relentlessly and without hesitation. The courts may be ignored today, but laws are not written in sand. Litigate everything, drag every overreach into the daylight, and make every legal maneuverer as costly as possible. Congress if it has the spine must use its power to investigate, obstruct, and, if necessary, shut down the very mechanisms that enable executive defiance

The problem with this is that it takes time. A significant proportion of Trump's power lies in the way he "floods" the news. Look at all the executive orders he gave within days, there are so many things that require an analytical and robust response that the result is to swamp those who would opposed him. Which is why people need to move proactively & decisively, not be afraid to anticipate his next move & mobilise a strong opposition.

Unfortunately, it sounds like the Democrats are going through a similar identity crisis to our Conservatives.

EarthlyNightshade · 16/03/2025 19:31

Happyinarcon · 16/03/2025 14:05

If America bans gender neutral bathrooms I’ll book a holiday there

It's unlikely that they will.
There's plenty of other places you can visit anyway.

YourAmberPoet · 16/03/2025 19:27

JHound · 16/03/2025 19:24

There are loads of Americans (and Britons) who love this about him though.

Of course they do. Power respects power, and in a world drowning in bureaucracy and hesitation, a man who bulldozes through obstacles looks like a savior to some.

JHound · 16/03/2025 19:24

There are loads of Americans (and Britons) who love this about him though.

YourAmberPoet · 16/03/2025 19:20

HangryLilacGoose · 16/03/2025 19:17

I disagree with your characterization of the strength of the US democracy. Most specifically, it notably lacks "teeth".

It has relied on Presidents' (and others) willingness to adhere to checks and balances and conventions, which Trump has demonstrated that he will not. There is little or nothing inherent in the US system that can contain a President that declines to be bound by it.

For example, if Trump loses in 2028 and challenges the election results at the Supereme Court and loses: what happens if Trump ignores the Court order and refuses to leave office? The court can send Marshals to arrest him, but the President still commands the military.

If violence (or the threat of it) becomes necessary to remove or force Trump (or any other president or official) to vacate office, that is not democracy. It is violence (or the threat of it) for the sake of protecting democracy.

The US's institutions are extremely pliable. Are its people? I fear they may be, lest they would not have re-elected Trump after the events of Jan 6. That said, if they are further tested, I genuinely hope that I'm proven wrong.

I do fear that you may be demonstrating some of the very complacency that your are warning against.

The real safeguard against such a scenario is the collective will of the people and their elected representatives. Public opinion, political pressure, and the mechanisms of impeachment and removal from office are tools designed to address abuses of power.

HangryLilacGoose · 16/03/2025 19:17

YourAmberPoet · 16/03/2025 18:58

Ah, but the difference between those fallen democracies and the United States is simple this system was built with teeth.

Other nations slipped because their foundations were weak, their institutions pliable, their people unwilling to do what was necessary. Here, power is tangled in a web of laws, courts, and a public that, when roused, is more dangerous than any despot’s ambition.

Complacency is a risk, sure. But so is panic. Fear hands power to those who would seize it. The real question isn’t whether democracy can fall it’s whether those who claim to defend it are willing to play as hard, as ruthless, and as relentless as those who seek to dismantle it. Because democracy doesn’t die when tyrants rise it dies when its defenders hesitate.

I disagree with your characterization of the strength of the US democracy. Most specifically, it notably lacks "teeth".

It has relied on Presidents' (and others) willingness to adhere to checks and balances and conventions, which Trump has demonstrated that he will not. There is little or nothing inherent in the US system that can contain a President that declines to be bound by it.

For example, if Trump loses in 2028 and challenges the election results at the Supereme Court and loses: what happens if Trump ignores the Court order and refuses to leave office? The court can send Marshals to arrest him, but the President still commands the military.

If violence (or the threat of it) becomes necessary to remove or force Trump (or any other president or official) to vacate office, that is not democracy. It is violence (or the threat of it) for the sake of protecting democracy.

The US's institutions are extremely pliable. Are its people? I fear they may be, lest they would not have re-elected Trump after the events of Jan 6. That said, if they are further tested, I genuinely hope that I'm proven wrong.

I do fear that you may be demonstrating some of the very complacency that your are warning against.

YourAmberPoet · 16/03/2025 19:16

Maitri108 · 16/03/2025 19:06

Some people haven't heard of a constitutional takeover. Weimar Germany, Russia, Venezuela, Hungary are just some of the former democracies that elected dictators.

Ah, the old ‘elected dictator’ argument a favorite among those who think history is a prophecy rather than a lesson.

Yes, Weimar Germany, Russia, Venezuela, Hungary all nations that slid into authoritarianism through democratic means. But here’s what’s missing from that comparison: none of them had the same entrenched institutions, the same checks and balances, or the same deeply ingrained culture of political resistance as the United States.

Germany had a constitution barely a decade old when Hitler took power, riddled with loopholes. Russia never had a democratic tradition strong enough to withstand its old authoritarian reflexes. Venezuela was built on the shifting sands of oil wealth and populism. Hungary? A small state easily bent by the forces around it.

The United States is not a fragile post-war republic or a fledgling democracy still learning how to walk. It is a system designed to endure, to resist, to fight back. Leaders may try to grab the reins, but they will find democracy here is not so easily tamed.

The fear of a constitutional takeover is valid if you believe the game is already lost. But history is written by those who refuse to fold. And in America, the house always plays the long game.

Maitri108 · 16/03/2025 19:06

Some people haven't heard of a constitutional takeover. Weimar Germany, Russia, Venezuela, Hungary are just some of the former democracies that elected dictators.

YourAmberPoet · 16/03/2025 18:58

HangryLilacGoose · 16/03/2025 18:51

@YourAmberPoet

Your posts are well written, as a call to action, and is absolutely the attitude those who resist attempts to scupper democracy must adopt.

But it does need to be borne in mind that various other countries, that were once democracies, have since become authoritarian states. Perhaps through the complacency you speak of.

"Dead" might be premature, but there is extremely good reason to think that the current administration cannot be removed at the ballot box.

You are right that this should not breed defeatism.

Ah, but the difference between those fallen democracies and the United States is simple this system was built with teeth.

Other nations slipped because their foundations were weak, their institutions pliable, their people unwilling to do what was necessary. Here, power is tangled in a web of laws, courts, and a public that, when roused, is more dangerous than any despot’s ambition.

Complacency is a risk, sure. But so is panic. Fear hands power to those who would seize it. The real question isn’t whether democracy can fall it’s whether those who claim to defend it are willing to play as hard, as ruthless, and as relentless as those who seek to dismantle it. Because democracy doesn’t die when tyrants rise it dies when its defenders hesitate.

HangryLilacGoose · 16/03/2025 18:51

@YourAmberPoet

Your posts are well written, as a call to action, and is absolutely the attitude those who resist attempts to scupper democracy must adopt.

But it does need to be borne in mind that various other countries, that were once democracies, have since become authoritarian states. Perhaps through the complacency you speak of.

"Dead" might be premature, but there is extremely good reason to think that the current administration cannot be removed at the ballot box.

You are right that this should not breed defeatism.

StandFirm · 16/03/2025 18:47

YourAmberPoet · 16/03/2025 18:43

Impatience is a luxury for those who expect change to be handed to them. But power isn’t given it’s taken, shaped, wielded.

Apathy? Perhaps. Or maybe it’s the slow, deliberate calculation of those who know that battles are not won in a single charge but in the grind of persistence. The opposition may look sluggish, but don’t mistake stillness for surrender. The system is vast, and while some play the long game in backrooms and courtrooms, others fight in the streets and the media.

Democracy doesn’t crumble in an instant, and neither does resistance. It’s easy to feel that time is slipping away, that things move too fast. But in the end, power that burns too hot consumes itself. The trick isn’t just to resist it’s to outlast. And democracy? It has a hell of a track record of doing just that.

Every word you've just written highlights the gravity of the situation. I like to believe there's hope.

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YourAmberPoet · 16/03/2025 18:43

StandFirm · 16/03/2025 18:41

I know what you mean - it is an ongoing battle and to proclaim democracy about to die can come across as defeatist. I hear that. I just feel there's a bit too much apparent apathy among elected representatives who are not part of the MAGA inner circle, and considering the speed of everything, it is difficult not to feel impatient.

Impatience is a luxury for those who expect change to be handed to them. But power isn’t given it’s taken, shaped, wielded.

Apathy? Perhaps. Or maybe it’s the slow, deliberate calculation of those who know that battles are not won in a single charge but in the grind of persistence. The opposition may look sluggish, but don’t mistake stillness for surrender. The system is vast, and while some play the long game in backrooms and courtrooms, others fight in the streets and the media.

Democracy doesn’t crumble in an instant, and neither does resistance. It’s easy to feel that time is slipping away, that things move too fast. But in the end, power that burns too hot consumes itself. The trick isn’t just to resist it’s to outlast. And democracy? It has a hell of a track record of doing just that.

StandFirm · 16/03/2025 18:41

I know what you mean - it is an ongoing battle and to proclaim democracy about to die can come across as defeatist. I hear that. I just feel there's a bit too much apparent apathy among elected representatives who are not part of the MAGA inner circle, and considering the speed of everything, it is difficult not to feel impatient.

OP posts: