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To think the NHS Significant job losses are a good thing to get rid of management pushing paper around all day and increase the number of hands on staff

195 replies

Husbandrippedmeoff · 16/03/2025 11:56

What does this mean, will they be slashing the number of people who work in management?

Do you work for the NHS are you worried?

OP posts:
CleverButScatty · 04/04/2025 08:57

Husbandrippedmeoff · 16/03/2025 12:12

Is it correct that only 10% of NHS employees are doctors and 26% work in admin?

That sounds about right. Doctors are highly skilled and much higher paid than admin staff. You want doctors focused on their clinical role and everything else delegates surely?

OFHelp · 04/04/2025 08:54

Yes so that does seem to replicate what she said about them retaining the higher bands who hold the clinical skills or expertise and the less skilled lower bands (I.e admin) will not be seen as crucial moving forwards

Theeyeballsinthesky · 04/04/2025 08:47

OFHelp · 04/04/2025 08:44

@Theeyeballsinthesky ah ok that's interesting I'm not sure if my neighbour was aware of that when we spoke. I'm not sure what all of those areas are though and whether she falls under them

the letter only came out 2 days ago so maybe not. The article goes on to say

“However, the letter underlines the need “to maintain some core staff, such as recently delegated [specialised] commissioning staff”. It also stresses ”the need to maintain or invest” in finance and contracting; “strategic commissioning” functions, including “building skills and capabilities in analytics, strategy, and market management”; and development of neighbourhood health”

OFHelp · 04/04/2025 08:44

@Theeyeballsinthesky ah ok that's interesting I'm not sure if my neighbour was aware of that when we spoke. I'm not sure what all of those areas are though and whether she falls under them

BarbedButterfly · 04/04/2025 08:11

MyKingdomforaNewUsername · 16/03/2025 14:58

My admin department of 12 has 3 vacancies we aren't allowed to put out due to costs and 4 on long term sick due to work stress. The 5 of us remaining will also be off with stress soon if this carries on

This is part of the problem with the NHS. Office staff off on long term sick due to "work stress"? How stressful can admin be? Bet they'd be back soon if the sick pay wasn't so generous!

Yeah I was NHS admin and when people left they weren't replaced and workload was given to me. I had the workload of 4 people when I left

Theeyeballsinthesky · 04/04/2025 08:06

OFHelp · 03/04/2025 22:12

My neighbour works for the local ICB and was telling me tonight over the garden fence how bad the atmosphere is there now. They've been told that workforce costs need to be reduced by 50% by end of this year and things are turning quite toxic as everyone is almost turning on each other as having a more valid reason for not being made redundant. From what they've been told by senior management it is being implied that the lower band 3 and 4 admin roles are likely to be hit first. She has a couple of those roles in her team and was quite upset as she said they are amazing workers who keep their teams running with all their support but she is pretty sure they will be cut but then she has no idea how the team cam function in the same way with the same outputs if managers are all having to do their own admin

HSJ had published the areas which will be targeted. They are principally Staff working in assurance, regulatory, performance management, communications and engagement roles

www.hsj.co.uk/integrated-care/revealed-the-icb-staff-targeted-for-redundancy/7039077.article

StarlightLady · 04/04/2025 08:01

Paper is not being pushed around as a fun activity. They are procedures for the safety and well being of patients. The fewer the administrators means that medics have to do this work.

QuirkInTheMatrix · 04/04/2025 07:58

I used to work for the nhs I’m now a senior lecturer. The universities cut admin staff but the admin work still needs doing. So effectively they just pay me 55k to do data inputting half my time and I spend much less time actually teaching 🤷🏻‍♀️. Fine by me but seems a bonkers approach.

QuirkInTheMatrix · 04/04/2025 07:55

A big organisation needs organising. It needs admin staff, office staff, bed managers, ward managers, educators, etc. there possibly could be a slimming down but I’m not sure any slimming down will be in the right place.

our hospital has cut non clinical jobs and there’s so few admin staff that people are getting letters about their appointments and operations after their appointment date. So they’re obviously missing appointments. That’s not saving the nhs money.

Gettingbysomehow · 04/04/2025 07:47

We have the right amount of managers in my department but half the clinical staff. We can't find any for love nor money however much we advertise. There just aren't enough training for our profession. The salary and progression is great but we a t find anyone and the department is really suffering.

Whyherewego · 04/04/2025 07:36

@NoctuaAthene has explained what NHSE do very well yet everyone still waffling on about hospital type management.
NHSE is too big and needed to be streamlined. But also runs vital services that are used by everyone. Do you like the NHS app ? That's run by NHS E. Do you like being able to pick up prescriptions at a pharmacy directly? Yes that's an NHSE run system. Do you think it makes sense to have 1 single email system that operates across the NHS so that people can easily email each other eg GPs to specialists and to different hospital? Yep again NHSE.
So there's lots of good and necessary things being done by people who are not doctors but which benefit patients and clinicians.
Calling everyone a pen pusher is very lazy.

OFHelp · 04/04/2025 07:25

I work in a seperate part of the NHS but it's obvious that if they cut all of the admin support there is no way that the band 6s and above will have time to do all of that work for themselves on top of their day to day and the extra work they will have for losing some of their peers too and having to pick up their workload. Unless they completely redesign the structure of how the ICB's operate and cut out some functions totally they will just end up having to re hire the admin down the line or they will lose everyone through burn out!

Scenicgirl · 03/04/2025 23:46

Awwlookatmybabyspider · 16/03/2025 15:10

The thing is though, he’s wanting everyone in work and contributing to the Economy yet at the same time he’s cutting 1000s upon 1000s of jobs.

He can’t have it both ways.

Precisely, and all the 1000's of people who will lose their jobs will have to look for jobs which are currently not out there. Of course many will claim benefits which in my view completely defeats the object. I don't think that they have thought about this deeply enough. Plus, DHSC staff are running a VR scheme so how it will all play out is anyones guess. So much for get Britain working!

Trovindia · 03/04/2025 23:11

Praying4Peace · 03/04/2025 22:17

It's the plethora of management roles in the NHS that needs to be reduced. I talk from experience

The NHS is not NHSE.

Praying4Peace · 03/04/2025 22:17

Trovindia · 16/03/2025 12:03

Absolutely no one is "pushing paper around all day" whether in the NHS or NHSE (I suspect you don't know the difference).

A huge organisation like the NHS needs oversight and accountability, and we need people doing that. You can't just put everyone in front line jobs with no management or strategy.

YABVU

It's the plethora of management roles in the NHS that needs to be reduced. I talk from experience

OFHelp · 03/04/2025 22:12

My neighbour works for the local ICB and was telling me tonight over the garden fence how bad the atmosphere is there now. They've been told that workforce costs need to be reduced by 50% by end of this year and things are turning quite toxic as everyone is almost turning on each other as having a more valid reason for not being made redundant. From what they've been told by senior management it is being implied that the lower band 3 and 4 admin roles are likely to be hit first. She has a couple of those roles in her team and was quite upset as she said they are amazing workers who keep their teams running with all their support but she is pretty sure they will be cut but then she has no idea how the team cam function in the same way with the same outputs if managers are all having to do their own admin

Choughinthemist · 20/03/2025 08:58

MyKingdomforaNewUsername · 16/03/2025 14:58

My admin department of 12 has 3 vacancies we aren't allowed to put out due to costs and 4 on long term sick due to work stress. The 5 of us remaining will also be off with stress soon if this carries on

This is part of the problem with the NHS. Office staff off on long term sick due to "work stress"? How stressful can admin be? Bet they'd be back soon if the sick pay wasn't so generous!

How patronising. Long term gaps in teams cause pressure and dysfunction. I was stressed in one of my roles as the dynamic caused bullying and I nearly killed myself. Is that good enough for your goady shit post or not? Or you can ask t my family Thats watched me turn into a stammering mess that lost all confidence. Glad you have obviously never had to go through it.

TeenLifeMum · 18/03/2025 22:34

Pussycat22 · 18/03/2025 22:09

You wanna try being a surgeon!!!

No I don’t, hence I’m not in their role any more than they would choose my role. Not insulting clinical colleagues, they’re fab. They don’t want to do the admin the public seem to want to inflict on them.

Pussycat22 · 18/03/2025 22:13

APATEKPHILLIPEWATCH · 16/03/2025 22:21

I’ve worked in the NHS. Paper pushers are most definitely a thing

Agree, didn't have all this ineptitude before managers were put in place.

Pussycat22 · 18/03/2025 22:09

TeenLifeMum · 16/03/2025 15:08

Yeah sure, let the doctors do my management job, they’ll love that. You’d think of if I was just pushing paper around I wouldn’t have to work late (unpaid), miss lunch breaks or hold my bladder for longer than is healthy. I think I’m doing hospital management wrong.

You wanna try being a surgeon!!!

EilonwyWithRedGoldHair · 17/03/2025 19:19

MyKingdomforaNewUsername · 16/03/2025 14:58

My admin department of 12 has 3 vacancies we aren't allowed to put out due to costs and 4 on long term sick due to work stress. The 5 of us remaining will also be off with stress soon if this carries on

This is part of the problem with the NHS. Office staff off on long term sick due to "work stress"? How stressful can admin be? Bet they'd be back soon if the sick pay wasn't so generous!

I'm voluntary sector, not NHS, but admin can absolutely be stressful - for example imagine your workload being more than doubled and only being given two extra hours a week.

We have a lot of contact with the NHS locally, at one point one of their admin staff used to pop over to use our photocopier as they weren't allowed to do colour copies because of the cost, even if it was affecting that needed to be in colour. Admin staff also ended up buying pens and stationery. She left in the end and wasn't replaced, so presumably some manager on a lot more money had to do his own admin...

stclementine · 17/03/2025 19:02

Husbandrippedmeoff · 17/03/2025 00:42

Feel free to enlighten us and tell us what you do!

I already have. Do read your own thread.

ByQuaintAzureWasp · 17/03/2025 09:34

NoctuaAthene · 16/03/2025 12:20

It's NHS England that is being abolished, not the whole concept of managers in the NHS. As has been extensively hashed over on here, in any large organisation such as a hospital a certain amount of management has to happen, to keep the lights on, pay the bills, manage supplies, keep an eye on the money, ensure the organisation is compliant with the law, fix the PCs when they break, arrange essential training for the staff, make sure health and safety issues get fixed and so on. It's only ever in relation to the NHS do I seriously hear people suggesting that either this shouldn't happen (and so I guess the hospital just keeps working by magic I guess?) or that the front line staff should do this in addition to their regular job? Those seem bonkers to me. Now like in every single large organisation of course there is some chaff within the back office functions that could get cut alongside the essential stuff, and like with every single human (front line clinical staff included!) there are people who are super-humanly excellent at NHS management, people that are pretty good, people that are bang average, people that are lazy and crap and people that are so bad they're borderline dangerous and dragging everyone else down with them. If we could only identify and get rid of the bottom two tiers that would be excellent but incidentally you need a pretty good HR function to do that safely and fairly - another useless pen pushing set of people!

Back to your actual question, will abolishing NHS England make a difference and lead to more front line NHS staff? As a current NHS manager in a hospital (if you hadn't guessed!) I'd say yes and maybe. NHS England is a bureaucratic tier of management created by the tories to be between actual care-delivering organisations like hospitals and GP practices and the government. Previously we had similar but there were multiple regional bodies (NHS London, NHS South West, local primary care trusts etc). In theory not a bad idea as usually you can be more efficient by centralising and creating one big organisation out of multiple smaller ones, but it hasn't really worked IMO, it's gotten bigger and more bloated over the years bringing in more and more functions and more and more divorced from the reality of being on the ground. I also think it's lacking accountability as a body. However I wouldn't be so sure we can just take the huge NHS England budget and simply just put all that back into hospitals or front line care (bit like the old misleading brexit headlines). There's a lot of boring bureaucratic NHS stuff that someone is going to have to keep doing, whether that's the department of health, local care boards or hospital managers. E.g. in the last few years NHS England absorbed Health Education England into itself, that's the function that liaises with universities and colleges about placement management for student nurses and doctors, makes sure curriculums are up to scratch and oversees postgrad training for doctors, very complicated and important stuff. Now NHS have pretty much done a crap job managing all that and HEE were poor before then too so I'm not complaining it's going to have to move again but someone has to do it and ideally centralised at at least a regional if not a national level as it would be chaos if hospitals and GPs were trying to do it. Also, overseeing GPs, managing who is allowed to set up GP practices, performance managing them and deciding how much they get paid (and then actually paying them) is another complex job. At a guess I'd be saying even if you are very ruthless about cutting the more 'managerial' end of what NHS does (efficiency initiatives, patient safety promotion, equalities stuff), at least some of which I'd also say is worthy of attention even if NHSE didn't do the best job, you'd only save maybe 30% of the NHSE budget , and even if you did put that money direct into front line care, the NHS budgets as a whole are so small I don't think you'd see a huge difference when spread around the whole of the NHS.

TLDR = yes it's a good idea to get rid of NHSE, no it won't mean many more nurses on the wards.

Long answer to a short question but I hope you see how complicated these things are!

Appreciate your words ... quite thought provoking. Thanks.

Motnight · 17/03/2025 07:06

Husbandrippedmeoff · 17/03/2025 00:42

Feel free to enlighten us and tell us what you do!

Why the aggressive posts @Husbandrippedmeoff?

Toddlerteaplease · 17/03/2025 06:51

@Kpo58absolutely. To admit a party to our ward means logging on to three separate systems. One to put them on the bed state. One for stickers and one for wristbands.