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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To send an employee to a client even though she refuses because of her religion?

640 replies

GelatinousDynamo · 15/03/2025 13:30

I have a new employee in my team, she is a devout Muslim. She's been with us since January and there were no issues so far, she's getting along well with everyone and her performance was fine. I sent her an email on Friday afternoon to say that our client has now (finally) prepared all necessary documents and that she should go there and go over everything with them one day next week. She wrote me back today that she can't do that because only men work in the department and she can't spend the day alone with strange men (because of her religion).

AIBU to insist that she does her job and goes there or would that be religious discrimination? She shares an office with a male colleague and has never complained about it. She's the first devout Muslim I've ever had on my team and I honestly have no experience at all with such issues. She's the only one who has the necessary experience and isn't already scheduled elsewhere.

OP posts:
Negroany · 16/03/2025 14:53

Ddakji · 16/03/2025 14:09

We’ll have to disagree then because I don’t consider that to be reasonable and if I was asked to be the chaperone I would refuse, and if I was the employer I would refuse as well. It’s is not the role of employers to accommodate backwards belief systems that are incompatible with the norms of British life. That is profoundly unreasonable.

Also "unpaid" doesn't work as it's a job, and jobs must be paid.

Negroany · 16/03/2025 14:53

ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly · 16/03/2025 14:03

Is there a “lone worker“ aspect to this…? If it is someone going alone to a particular place …?

No. She won't be alone, will she? That's actually the problem!

SerendipityJane · 16/03/2025 14:32

But this is her deeply held belief system.

So are Star Wards and Tolkien. Yet I've never heard of someone having to use the force to deal with a project.

SerendipityJane · 16/03/2025 14:31

As a side note: why are so many posters, including the OP, repeating what their DHs advised, as if it is at all relevant?

If this wasn't MN, I'd say irony.

Futurehappiness · 16/03/2025 14:25

It just strikes me as odd and not about it being OK or otherwise. I share opinions with those close to me like all of us, but I don't think I would post 'my sister thinks x', implying that this proves that of course, my sister thinking it makes it valid. Because if I agree with my sister then it is my opinion too - so why not just state that?

Why would a random DH of a poster know more than anyone else posting?
I could cite my (considerable) business experience and knowledge of the law; but frankly I know I can't advise exactly what to do in this situation as I am not there on the ground with full knowledge of all the facts. So I freely admit I don't know how to resolve it - I just know the potential risks & recommend caution as have other posters. It is disconcerting how many people feel they can give dangerous advice with such confidence, when what is at stake is a woman's livelihood as well as the protection of the OP's employer's interests.

The OP needs to obtain appropriate support IRL and not rely on what her DH, her sister, or posters here (including me), are advising her. Because much of the advice is garbage and if she were to follow it she & her employer would be in serious trouble.

HermioneWeasley · 16/03/2025 14:25

Indirect discrimination occurs when a provision, criterion or practice (PCP) is applied by the employer which is harder for someone with a protected characteristic to comply with. The discrimination can be justified if it is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

so in this case the PCP is that people attend client sites for meetings. Sometimes this means being alone (but in presumably an open plan office not a sex dungeon) with people of the opposite sex.

is wanting staff to attend client sites a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim? The aim being happy clients and profitable work, I would say yes. Given that certainly not all Muslims will refuse to do it and it is at best her interpretation of the religion.

saraclara · 16/03/2025 14:18

I'm assuming that this is a fairly high level and important meeting. If the employee turns up at the clients with a random auntie to chaperone her, I suspect the client is going to take her a lot less seriously than he otherwise would. And that isn't going to help her or the company one bit.

ThinWomansBrain · 16/03/2025 14:11

Balloonhearts · 15/03/2025 13:35

If she's only been there a few months then I would just fail her probation. You don't have to give a reason for letting her go as she hasn't been there 2 years.

Sorry, the advice above is wrong, religious beliefs are one of the protected characteristics under the Equality Act 2010, so the two year period doesn't apply.,

I'd get legal advice.
Is there a workaround - like the client visiting your premises to do the work?

Ddakji · 16/03/2025 14:09

Smartiepants79 · 16/03/2025 14:03

You might not get it, you might think it’s ridiculous, and in western society it is. But this is her deeply held belief system.
Personally, I think that allowing her to take along an unpaid ‘chaperone’ is a reasonable adjustment. It wouldn’t bother me. It makes no difference to the company or the client or the job. It is not costing anyone money, in fact it is potentially saving them some money in allowing the woman to comfortably complete her role.

We’ll have to disagree then because I don’t consider that to be reasonable and if I was asked to be the chaperone I would refuse, and if I was the employer I would refuse as well. It’s is not the role of employers to accommodate backwards belief systems that are incompatible with the norms of British life. That is profoundly unreasonable.

saraclara · 16/03/2025 14:05

Futurehappiness · 16/03/2025 14:03

As a side note: why are so many posters, including the OP, repeating what their DHs advised, as if it is at all relevant? Much of the advice is garbage - but that's not really the point.

Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of respect for my DH point of view; but he is not the Oracle just because he is a man. He doesn't know how to do my job and I don't know how to do his.

To me it just sits rather oddly on a thread where several posters are concerned about the feminist implications of this situation. That & the fact that so many people seem so keen - to the point of being almost gleeful - at the prospect of depriving a woman of her livelihood due to this.

So if someone said "I just asked my sister... (insert sisters experience)..." that would be okay?

That poster didn't ask her husband because he's a man. She asked him because she sees him as having relevant experience and he's in the same room.

ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly · 16/03/2025 14:03

Is there a “lone worker“ aspect to this…? If it is someone going alone to a particular place …?

Smartiepants79 · 16/03/2025 14:03

Ddakji · 16/03/2025 13:56

A married chaperone? Is this a Jane Austen novel, instead of 21st century Britain?

Just listen to yourself.

You might not get it, you might think it’s ridiculous, and in western society it is. But this is her deeply held belief system.
Personally, I think that allowing her to take along an unpaid ‘chaperone’ is a reasonable adjustment. It wouldn’t bother me. It makes no difference to the company or the client or the job. It is not costing anyone money, in fact it is potentially saving them some money in allowing the woman to comfortably complete her role.

Futurehappiness · 16/03/2025 14:03

As a side note: why are so many posters, including the OP, repeating what their DHs advised, as if it is at all relevant? Much of the advice is garbage - but that's not really the point.

Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of respect for my DH point of view; but he is not the Oracle just because he is a man. He doesn't know how to do my job and I don't know how to do his.

To me it just sits rather oddly on a thread where several posters are concerned about the feminist implications of this situation. That & the fact that so many people seem so keen - to the point of being almost gleeful - at the prospect of depriving a woman of her livelihood due to this.

saraclara · 16/03/2025 14:02

You says she's a good worker and apparently, despite being new, the only person in your team who can manage this task.

It's HER project @JWhipple . So of course it has to be her. The only alternative is that OP does it, as she's been supervising, but that has major ramifications around costing and calendars. And then what happens next time? If this person can't carry her projects to completion she has no future in the company, and she simply won't be able to be given those protects.

Ddakji · 16/03/2025 13:56

JWhipple · 16/03/2025 13:55

You says she's a good worker and apparently, despite being new, the only person in your team who can manage this task.
So obviously you talk about sacking her for declining one aspect of her job. FFS.

Is there any way she can do this task without going against her beliefs? Such as having a married chaperone? Did you even speak to her? Or did you just invent this entire scenario to whip up a bunch of bigots on Mumsnet?

A married chaperone? Is this a Jane Austen novel, instead of 21st century Britain?

Just listen to yourself.

Ddakji · 16/03/2025 13:56

JWhipple · 16/03/2025 13:52

Maybe as he's married and so it's allowed in her religion.

Well, as employers can’t ask if their employees are married or single, she’s going to have to get over that.

JWhipple · 16/03/2025 13:55

You says she's a good worker and apparently, despite being new, the only person in your team who can manage this task.
So obviously you talk about sacking her for declining one aspect of her job. FFS.

Is there any way she can do this task without going against her beliefs? Such as having a married chaperone? Did you even speak to her? Or did you just invent this entire scenario to whip up a bunch of bigots on Mumsnet?

JWhipple · 16/03/2025 13:52

graceinspace999 · 15/03/2025 13:35

If she’s already sharing an office with a male then I don’t understand why she is refusing this task.
Discuss it with her and see is there another issue. Also ask why she didn’t mention this in interviews since it appears to be a crucial role.

Maybe as he's married and so it's allowed in her religion.

Futurehappiness · 16/03/2025 13:50

CautiousLurker01 · 16/03/2025 13:35

Just asked my DH (large multinational company where he has lots of colleagues/reportees from every ethnicity and religious backgrounds).. he was stunned as not encountered this in his 30 odd years and stated in this situation he would find her tasks she can do in the short term and manage her out into redundancy pretty damn quick on grounds of being unable to progress and meet performance objectives (after all, professionally she cannot develop if unable to attend meetings with men alone in a role that requires it).

Your DH doesn't know what he is talking about. It is not a redundancy situation as this employee's job still exists. If you deprive her of contractual work tasks then force her out on spurious redundancy grounds then you really will risk a religion discrimination case.

Get appropriate advice from HR and employment law experts. Then discuss with the employee with a view to resolving the concerns and finding a workaround if at all possible. Dismiss only as a last resort, with appropriate legal guidance, and only if you can clearly demonstrate that you have done all possible to resolve the matter. That's it.

CautiousLurker01 · 16/03/2025 13:35

Just asked my DH (large multinational company where he has lots of colleagues/reportees from every ethnicity and religious backgrounds).. he was stunned as not encountered this in his 30 odd years and stated in this situation he would find her tasks she can do in the short term and manage her out into redundancy pretty damn quick on grounds of being unable to progress and meet performance objectives (after all, professionally she cannot develop if unable to attend meetings with men alone in a role that requires it).

MrsSkylerWhite · 16/03/2025 13:28

HoppingGreen

Pharmacists can refuse to sell the MAP I believe

That’s bloody outrageous.

Dideon · 16/03/2025 11:14

Panterusblackish · 16/03/2025 10:11

Do this, be as gracious as possible in offering alternatives. Record the efforts you've made. Give her absolutely no come back.

Then sack her within the two year period because 'it's not working out'.

No one would put up with a Christian or a Jewish person taking a job they know they're cannot perform.

It's not culturally acceptable to refuse to meet with the opposite sex in your professional role in the UK. Neither should it be, it's as bad as the Muslim man that would not shake hands with women. Discrimination on the basis of his made up sky fairy.

It's this kind of shit, the erosion of Western liberal values that is leading to the rise of the right. It's why the USA has Trump.

I wouldn't move to Saudi and walk round eating a bacon sarnie whilst wearing a bikini top. They have strong boundaries about what they consider acceptable. The UK needs to work on healthy boundaries before we end up with Farage in charge.

Exactly what I was about to write !!!

CandidHedgehog · 16/03/2025 11:14

Butchyrestingface · 16/03/2025 11:04

If in the longer-term, if the business can't run competitively because of the need for a chaperone/employee being unable to fulfil critical elements of her job, would business be able to get rid of her on cost-cutting redundancy grounds (which could also affect other staff)? Or is that still a complete minefield?

Am wondering if the employee left her old job in a 'jump before you're pushed' situation.

I also feel for future prospective female employees who are devout muslims and who may have no such scruples. All people are individuals, after all, with their own interpretation of certain tenets of faith and 'devout 'does not equal 'perfect'. OP's firm is going to be far less open to employing such a person - even though they might have no objection to being alone with a male client.

If the business can’t be run profitably based on her religious requirements, they can dismiss her on the basis she can’t do the job in a way that allows the business to operate.

It is a minefield but so long as the OP follows procedure, it can be done.

It’s if she just charges in and sacks her the way her DH and some people on this thread have suggested that things could go very wrong. She needs to carefully document why it’s not possible to make changes to the job to comply with the request and the fact that makes the job untenable.

There may also need to be some back and forth discussion with the employee (in writing, obviously) to make it clear there have been good faith attempts to address the issue. HR should be able to advise (and if they’ve been get it wrong, it’s not the OP who will be blamed!).

Puzzledandpissedoff · 16/03/2025 11:11

andHelenknowsimmiserablenow · 16/03/2025 09:04

Yes, and the company will need to learn from this for future recruitment.
At the interview it should be made clear what the expectations of these on site meetings are, and that they involve meeting people of one, or both sexes, solo, and then asking the candidate to confirm they are willing to do this.

It's very dodgy ground and they'd certainly have to ask everyone rather than just selected candidates in order to get away with it at all, but realistically many employers will just find a reason not to employ the muslim applicant

Illegal and deeply sad, yes, but equally there's no point denying it happens and why that is

Butchyrestingface · 16/03/2025 11:04

CautiousLurker01 · 16/03/2025 10:33

As I understand it, she has no intention of charging the client more for a chaperone - Op was stating that this would be the only way to preserve the profit on the job. I suspect if P goes to the meeting she will likely have to charge at the same rate as the employee who is refusing to attend, so is already risking that loss, and is likely bound to do so because she has costed - and quoted a fee to the client - based on being able to send this employee.

Going forward, it means she cannot price jobs competitively as she now has to allow for this person being unavailable to do many client facing site visits and meetings - it puts her business and risk and may lose her clients.

OP, hope you can find a legal way through this because I feel you have been mislead during interview by this person.

If in the longer-term, if the business can't run competitively because of the need for a chaperone/employee being unable to fulfil critical elements of her job, would business be able to get rid of her on cost-cutting redundancy grounds (which could also affect other staff)? Or is that still a complete minefield?

Am wondering if the employee left her old job in a 'jump before you're pushed' situation.

I also feel for future prospective female employees who are devout muslims and who may have no such scruples. All people are individuals, after all, with their own interpretation of certain tenets of faith and 'devout 'does not equal 'perfect'. OP's firm is going to be far less open to employing such a person - even though they might have no objection to being alone with a male client.

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