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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To send an employee to a client even though she refuses because of her religion?

640 replies

GelatinousDynamo · 15/03/2025 13:30

I have a new employee in my team, she is a devout Muslim. She's been with us since January and there were no issues so far, she's getting along well with everyone and her performance was fine. I sent her an email on Friday afternoon to say that our client has now (finally) prepared all necessary documents and that she should go there and go over everything with them one day next week. She wrote me back today that she can't do that because only men work in the department and she can't spend the day alone with strange men (because of her religion).

AIBU to insist that she does her job and goes there or would that be religious discrimination? She shares an office with a male colleague and has never complained about it. She's the first devout Muslim I've ever had on my team and I honestly have no experience at all with such issues. She's the only one who has the necessary experience and isn't already scheduled elsewhere.

OP posts:
MissRoseDurward · 16/03/2025 16:58

OP doesn't say multiple times though, it might be a one off meeting.

And then there'll be another meeting with another client. And another. And another. Because that's the job she's employed to do. And OP can't ask every prospective cient 'can you guarantee there'll be a woman present when my team member comes to you?' Or if she does, prospective clients will soon start looking elsewhere for their technical assistance.

Futurehappiness · 16/03/2025 16:51

Trolleysaregoodforemployment · 16/03/2025 16:18

I don't think any one is gleeful about depriving a woman of income. I suspect most have an issue with women being pulled back into the dark ages by restrictive practices. There are enough attacks womens rights and autonomy without the chokehold of religious dogma.

When I read posts like:
'she's being a PITA. Get rid'
'Give her the sack. Only 2 months in and she has pulled this stunt'
'Just fail her after probation. Easiest way'

-it looks uncomfortably close to glee.

And the various comments about how troublesome Muslims & other religious people are and what an inconvenience to the rest of us, eg: 'these people are very litiginous', 'this person is a religious grifter'.

We don't know what the situation is with this woman; it could be due to her own genuine, freely-held beliefs or it could be more complex (as other posters have pointed out - pressure from a relative, or a cover for different concerns altogether?)

The way forward is to get expert advice before taking any actions on this which the OP, wisely, has said she is doing.

Ddakji · 16/03/2025 16:50

Pepjjgf · 16/03/2025 16:37

This is genuinely part of her religion. Though they may be some exemption for necessity. Even she goes she'd refuse to shake their hands.

If it’s “genuinely part of her religion” then why have other Muslims on this thread said they wouldn’t have a problem with this scenario?

Meeting in person with the client(s) is “genuinely part of the job she’s contracted to do and is being paid for”.

Ddakji · 16/03/2025 16:48

MrsSunshine2b · 16/03/2025 16:12

OP doesn't say multiple times though, it might be a one off meeting.

I'm public sector and where I work travel is pretty much completely off the table due to funding. Everything has to be done via Teams, with special provisions in place due to the sensitivity of a lot of our work. I'm struggling to understand why a face-to-face meeting is necessary when most of the UK Govt is managing without them.

Perhaps the private sector understands the value of in-person meetings.

Trolleysaregoodforemployment · 16/03/2025 16:45

MrsSunshine2b · 16/03/2025 16:12

OP doesn't say multiple times though, it might be a one off meeting.

I'm public sector and where I work travel is pretty much completely off the table due to funding. Everything has to be done via Teams, with special provisions in place due to the sensitivity of a lot of our work. I'm struggling to understand why a face-to-face meeting is necessary when most of the UK Govt is managing without them.

You are comparing apple and pears. The employee works in a technical, advisory role in a male dominated sector. She is being asked to perform the specialist role for which she was recruited, in a professional environment, with other professionals, onsite with her client. Working at a client site is an expectation in many advisory roles as is the likelihood that you might be the only female in a room full of men.

Pepjjgf · 16/03/2025 16:37

This is genuinely part of her religion. Though they may be some exemption for necessity. Even she goes she'd refuse to shake their hands.

SerendipityJane · 16/03/2025 16:34

MrsSunshine2b · 16/03/2025 16:12

OP doesn't say multiple times though, it might be a one off meeting.

I'm public sector and where I work travel is pretty much completely off the table due to funding. Everything has to be done via Teams, with special provisions in place due to the sensitivity of a lot of our work. I'm struggling to understand why a face-to-face meeting is necessary when most of the UK Govt is managing without them.

OP isn't in the public sector.

blubberyboo · 16/03/2025 16:26

MrsSunshine2b · 16/03/2025 15:47

Surely there is an admin assistant or secretary who can be spared for a few hours one afternoon to go along with her. They can take notes, learn a bit more about the business and get a bit of a change from the office. Problem solved.

Very telling that you have assumed that any secretary or admin assistant would naturally be female and that their own job would be of so little value that they could be spared in order to prevent this other employee practicing sex discrimination against the companies clients.

The employee wouldn't have the right to know the sex of her colleagues never mind clients. She could easily have found herself in a totally male office on her first day.

The employer has a requirement to make reasonable adjustments but if the adjustments are not reasonable and would be cumbersome they they have a defence. In this case the defence would also be they have a duty to not allow sex discrimination to be carried out against their clients. Op has made it clear this is likely to keep coming up in practice.

Employers do not have to bend to every ask/requirement of a religion if it is not practical and if it conflicts with another protected characteristic. Eg they do not have to offer prayer breaks at certain times if it affects the business/ clashes with busy periods. We would not accept a male colleague refusing to work with us as we are female. The main thing is that they can show everything they looked at and why it will not work.

Trolleysaregoodforemployment · 16/03/2025 16:18

Futurehappiness · 16/03/2025 14:03

As a side note: why are so many posters, including the OP, repeating what their DHs advised, as if it is at all relevant? Much of the advice is garbage - but that's not really the point.

Don't get me wrong, I have a lot of respect for my DH point of view; but he is not the Oracle just because he is a man. He doesn't know how to do my job and I don't know how to do his.

To me it just sits rather oddly on a thread where several posters are concerned about the feminist implications of this situation. That & the fact that so many people seem so keen - to the point of being almost gleeful - at the prospect of depriving a woman of her livelihood due to this.

I don't think any one is gleeful about depriving a woman of income. I suspect most have an issue with women being pulled back into the dark ages by restrictive practices. There are enough attacks womens rights and autonomy without the chokehold of religious dogma.

MrsSunshine2b · 16/03/2025 16:12

CautiousLurker01 · 16/03/2025 15:58

Most companies don’t have admin assistants or secretaries anymore - my DH’s company hasn’t had them for a decade as all the things they used to do (travel, expenses, meetings etc) are all more easily and quickly done online, directly, by each employee. And suggesting that any such employees’s work is so unimportant that they can be spared for 2-3 hours, possibly multiple times a week, kind of smacks of denigrating their role?

Edited

OP doesn't say multiple times though, it might be a one off meeting.

I'm public sector and where I work travel is pretty much completely off the table due to funding. Everything has to be done via Teams, with special provisions in place due to the sensitivity of a lot of our work. I'm struggling to understand why a face-to-face meeting is necessary when most of the UK Govt is managing without them.

saraclara · 16/03/2025 16:09

CautiousLurker01 · 16/03/2025 15:58

Most companies don’t have admin assistants or secretaries anymore - my DH’s company hasn’t had them for a decade as all the things they used to do (travel, expenses, meetings etc) are all more easily and quickly done online, directly, by each employee. And suggesting that any such employees’s work is so unimportant that they can be spared for 2-3 hours, possibly multiple times a week, kind of smacks of denigrating their role?

Edited

Also the client might well not be local. OP talks about 'day' so there could be travel involved.

But the whole concept of sending a chaperone is, in afraid, batshit. It's not practical or economical, and it will affect how the client perceives the colleague and the company.

You might think that's wrong, but it's human nature.

CautiousLurker01 · 16/03/2025 15:58

MrsSunshine2b · 16/03/2025 15:47

Surely there is an admin assistant or secretary who can be spared for a few hours one afternoon to go along with her. They can take notes, learn a bit more about the business and get a bit of a change from the office. Problem solved.

Most companies don’t have admin assistants or secretaries anymore - my DH’s company hasn’t had them for a decade as all the things they used to do (travel, expenses, meetings etc) are all more easily and quickly done online, directly, by each employee. And suggesting that any such employees’s work is so unimportant that they can be spared for 2-3 hours, possibly multiple times a week, kind of smacks of denigrating their role?

MissRoseDurward · 16/03/2025 15:58

Surely there is an admin assistant or secretary who can be spared for a few hours one afternoon to go along with her.

And who is doing her work while she's sitting around watching someone else work?

And I don't think op has said how long the employee would need to be onsite. It might be a few hours one afternoon, it might be longer, it might be repeated visits.

Bleeky · 16/03/2025 15:48

A big unknown … is what exactly is the issue.

Is it working outside the office, because employee doesn’t know the situation in a client workplace??
At a client workplace, their own employees, visitors and clients can move around changing the gender dynamics in their offices at any time.

Does this employee need to know for 100% certain who & their gender will be at any place where she has a meeting.

It’s difficult to understand if it’s just this one client, or if it will be all external clients. It’s not appropriate for OP to ask clients the number and gender of people in a meeting room, and if there is glass, or who in the building and ask client to guarantee gender attendance.

If she can never visit an external client, and it’s required then there are decisions that need to be made. She can take a job that is internal only … but if it requires an additional hire to do job she isn’t doing - then it’s too costly to be reasonable.

Employee needs to define the issue with external meetings. Is it this one? Or ALL.

Jaxhog · 16/03/2025 15:48

If this was likely to be a one-off, I'd try to accommodate her. But if she's working in a technical field where most of your clients are male, then she can't reasonably do her job. HR and legal are the way to go.

MrsSunshine2b · 16/03/2025 15:47

blubberyboo · 16/03/2025 15:04

Err

It isn't reasonable from an insurance and health and safety point of view for either business to bring a randomer onto the premises who won't be insured to be there!

Also the clients might rightly object to said randomer having access to confidential information. If this is a technology or research contract relating to a listed company it could constitute inside information which random people aren't legally allowed access to if it can affect share prices!

No your reasonable adjustment is not reasonable.

Surely there is an admin assistant or secretary who can be spared for a few hours one afternoon to go along with her. They can take notes, learn a bit more about the business and get a bit of a change from the office. Problem solved.

andHelenknowsimmiserablenow · 16/03/2025 15:44

Puzzledandpissedoff · 16/03/2025 11:11

It's very dodgy ground and they'd certainly have to ask everyone rather than just selected candidates in order to get away with it at all, but realistically many employers will just find a reason not to employ the muslim applicant

Illegal and deeply sad, yes, but equally there's no point denying it happens and why that is

Yes, of course the question would need to be asked to all candidates. There may be others who are not religious, but may be unconfident of doing this part of the job and will refuse it. If the expectation is laid out straight away then the company will not be on the back foot after they have already employed someone.

MrsSunshine2b · 16/03/2025 15:42

Ddakji · 16/03/2025 14:09

We’ll have to disagree then because I don’t consider that to be reasonable and if I was asked to be the chaperone I would refuse, and if I was the employer I would refuse as well. It’s is not the role of employers to accommodate backwards belief systems that are incompatible with the norms of British life. That is profoundly unreasonable.

One of the norms of British life is abiding by the rule of law, including the Equality Act, which states that it is illegal to discriminate against employees due to protected characteristics and reasonable adjustments must be made.

Religious belief is a protected characteristic.

AlpacaMittens · 16/03/2025 15:40

ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly · 16/03/2025 14:56

No, but she will be the lone representative of the company. Like an estate agent going into a house with clients.

Which happens literally all the time. Never seen estate agents in pairs showing houses.

Sashya · 16/03/2025 15:07

GelatinousDynamo · 15/03/2025 23:22

So, I haven't replied to her and won't until I've spoken to someone who can tell me big No's. I have a meeting with our HR lady first thing Monday, and we will be trying to consult a lawyer the same day. Trying to tread very carefully here.

If need be, I can make the client appointment myself, but of course it will throw our fee calculation (and everything else) completely overboard.

To all those suggesting a chaperone: you've never worked in a professional setting, have you? Taking an aunt to a client appointment? They'd never take her seriously after such a stunt. She's a senior, not some fresh intern. Would you also suggest bringing your mum to a job interview? What a load of bollocks. But thanks for the laugh.

Edited

I think you need to go on your own, but not charge the client extra (as I presume your /hr is higher than hers) - as it's not the client's fault that your employee is refusing to do her job.
I'd figure out with HR the proper process to transition your new hire out - so that you are covered. But it really is not about discrimination here - she is simply refusing OR not able to perform her job. This is not a case of you trying to send her to entertain clients on Ramadan, or something like that.

saraclara · 16/03/2025 15:06

ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly · 16/03/2025 14:56

No, but she will be the lone representative of the company. Like an estate agent going into a house with clients.

It's nothing like going into someone's house. She's going to a company's offices. A professional environment!

How do you think any women can carry out a professional role without having meetings with other professionals at their offices? Do you think every woman drags a colleague or their auntie with them?

blubberyboo · 16/03/2025 15:04

Smartiepants79 · 16/03/2025 14:03

You might not get it, you might think it’s ridiculous, and in western society it is. But this is her deeply held belief system.
Personally, I think that allowing her to take along an unpaid ‘chaperone’ is a reasonable adjustment. It wouldn’t bother me. It makes no difference to the company or the client or the job. It is not costing anyone money, in fact it is potentially saving them some money in allowing the woman to comfortably complete her role.

Err

It isn't reasonable from an insurance and health and safety point of view for either business to bring a randomer onto the premises who won't be insured to be there!

Also the clients might rightly object to said randomer having access to confidential information. If this is a technology or research contract relating to a listed company it could constitute inside information which random people aren't legally allowed access to if it can affect share prices!

No your reasonable adjustment is not reasonable.

MissRoseDurward · 16/03/2025 14:59

Is there a workaround - like the client visiting your premises to do the work?

Read the op's posts. She has said more than once that it is not possible to do the work in her office, or in a coffeeshop, or via Teams or Zoom.

As to taking an unpaid chaperone, the client would have to agree to having some random person who isn't employed by them or by op's company on their premises. There might be all sorts of reasons why they don't think it's appropriate.

blubberyboo · 16/03/2025 14:57

BobShark · 16/03/2025 09:55

I’m surprised at some of the responses here, a devout Muslim woman is not allowed to spend time alone in the. Company of just men.

i thought this was widely understood,

i think if there is an alternative for this you should try to accommodate her, and as some PP have suggested confirm the law in this regard with your HR department.

I thought it was also widely understood that an employee cannot discriminate against a client on the basis of their sex. This employee is refusing to provide a service to her clients due to their sex. There doesn't seem to be any satisfactory accommodation that doesn't cost the business the entire profit and maybe also the relationship.

Unless the employee is willing to sacrifice her entire pay on the deal to being along a female colleague but again that may not be satisfactory to the client if aspects are meant to be confidential. At the end of the day the employee accepted this role knowing that her religion would interfere with her ability to do the work.

ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly · 16/03/2025 14:56

No, but she will be the lone representative of the company. Like an estate agent going into a house with clients.

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