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AIBU?

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To send an employee to a client even though she refuses because of her religion?

640 replies

GelatinousDynamo · 15/03/2025 13:30

I have a new employee in my team, she is a devout Muslim. She's been with us since January and there were no issues so far, she's getting along well with everyone and her performance was fine. I sent her an email on Friday afternoon to say that our client has now (finally) prepared all necessary documents and that she should go there and go over everything with them one day next week. She wrote me back today that she can't do that because only men work in the department and she can't spend the day alone with strange men (because of her religion).

AIBU to insist that she does her job and goes there or would that be religious discrimination? She shares an office with a male colleague and has never complained about it. She's the first devout Muslim I've ever had on my team and I honestly have no experience at all with such issues. She's the only one who has the necessary experience and isn't already scheduled elsewhere.

OP posts:
Thelnebriati · 19/03/2025 11:08

Religion or belief is a protected characteristic, but not every tenet of a religion is protected in the workplace.
For example, you may refuse to shake hands with women; but if you do that at work while shaking hands with men you are being discriminatory.

Ddakji · 19/03/2025 11:02

Exactly. Which is why I don’t think it’s clear-cut as “this is a protected characteristic”. Belief in sex-segregation in the workplace (which this woman appears to be selective about) isn’t a PC.

ShockedandStunnedRepeatedly · 19/03/2025 10:24

Not every Muslim does this, though.

Ddakji · 19/03/2025 10:22

ThatsNotMyTeen · 19/03/2025 09:58

She’s a Muslim, a perfectly mainstream religion in the U.K. Of course her belief passes the Grainger test

Her belief might but how she chooses to manifest it might not. Refusing to meet male clients which is part and parcel of her job is not necessarily protected.

ThatsNotMyTeen · 19/03/2025 09:58

Thelnebriati · 18/03/2025 23:22

Your employee is entitled to hold her belief; but to be protected a belief must pass the Grainger criteria - it must be genuine, be worthy of respect in a democratic society, not be incompatible with human dignity and not conflict with the fundamental rights of others.
I don't think her belief passes this test.

www.simmons-simmons.com/en/publications/ck6ggvf024cit09613bdk3yuc/veganism-as-a-protected-belief-the-upshot-for-employers

She’s a Muslim, a perfectly mainstream religion in the U.K. Of course her belief passes the Grainger test

SerendipityJane · 19/03/2025 09:45

Your employee is entitled to hold her belief; but to be protected a belief must pass the Grainger criteria - it must be genuine, be worthy of respect in a democratic society, not be incompatible with human dignity and not conflict with the fundamental rights of others.

Which would all be very well if circumcision wasn't allowed to be practised in the name of a sky fairy.

So, like religions themselves, the "Grainger criteria" is a crock.

I don't think that helps the situation.

Ponderingwindow · 19/03/2025 05:00

phoenixrosehere · 18/03/2025 18:11

It’s discrimination not to be alone with men??

Imagine a man refusing to meet with potential female clients or colleagues. A man not wanting a female colleague to join a business trip.

it’s easier to see when the discrimination goes from the traditionally more powerful group towards the traditionally disenfranchised group, but traditional power dynamics don’t negate the issue.

impairing the service provided to a client or the career opportunities of colleagues because their sex is inconvenient is discriminatory.

HelplessSoul · 19/03/2025 04:54

Justsaywhatyoumean123 · 18/03/2025 23:00

I think you'll have to accommodate somehow.
She is probably scared.

No she doesnt have to be accommodated. At all.

What she needs, is to be fucking sacked for insubordination.

Thelnebriati · 18/03/2025 23:22

Your employee is entitled to hold her belief; but to be protected a belief must pass the Grainger criteria - it must be genuine, be worthy of respect in a democratic society, not be incompatible with human dignity and not conflict with the fundamental rights of others.
I don't think her belief passes this test.

www.simmons-simmons.com/en/publications/ck6ggvf024cit09613bdk3yuc/veganism-as-a-protected-belief-the-upshot-for-employers

Justsaywhatyoumean123 · 18/03/2025 23:00

I think you'll have to accommodate somehow.
She is probably scared.

blubberyboo · 18/03/2025 22:46

phoenixrosehere · 18/03/2025 18:11

It’s discrimination not to be alone with men??

Yes it's sex discrimination for an employee to refuse to work with clients or colleagues and therefore provide them with a less favourable service because of their sex.

Why is this hard to understand?

phoenixrosehere · 18/03/2025 18:11

Ponderingwindow · 18/03/2025 14:56

this is definitely an issue for HR and whatever legal team they decide to consult.

i personally believe that her request actively discriminates against other people on the basis of sex, a protected characteristic, and should therefore not be allowed.

It’s discrimination not to be alone with men??

Butchyrestingface · 18/03/2025 17:34

Puzzledandpissedoff · 18/03/2025 17:11

We don't know that it hasn't, honeybeetheoneandonly; she's comparatively new in this particular job, and with so many employers determined to give "neutral" references OP may not be aware if there were similar issues in her last one

It's equally possible that something may have influenced a change to a more culturally observant way of life, but again we just can't know

I think you're right to highlight the last point - there's often a bit of an assumption that religious faith is this static, non-changing thing and people's beliefs are set in stone. But that's rarely the case for any part of life so why should religion be any different?

I also think there's a tendency to interpret 'observant' or 'devout' as meaning 'perfect'. Posters have alluded to the fact that this woman shakes hands with men as some sort of 'gotcha' undermining any other belief she may have. But lack of perfection or 100% consistency in one's religious beliefs and practices doesn't mean they are any less genuine or valid - most people of ANY religious persuasion tend to have parts of their faith they agree more or less strongly with.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 18/03/2025 17:11

honeybeetheoneandonly · 18/03/2025 14:46

I don't understand how this has not been an issue before. How has she been able to get to senior level in a client meeting based role without this having curbed her career choice very early on? Has she only ever had someone with her or always made sure there was at least one woman during all her appointments?

We don't know that it hasn't, honeybeetheoneandonly; she's comparatively new in this particular job, and with so many employers determined to give "neutral" references OP may not be aware if there were similar issues in her last one

It's equally possible that something may have influenced a change to a more culturally observant way of life, but again we just can't know

Butchyrestingface · 18/03/2025 16:43

honeybeetheoneandonly · 18/03/2025 14:46

I don't understand how this has not been an issue before. How has she been able to get to senior level in a client meeting based role without this having curbed her career choice very early on? Has she only ever had someone with her or always made sure there was at least one woman during all her appointments?

That's why I think having a chat in the first instance with the employee to see what her, if anything, her suggestion for handling the situation would be. Hard to imagine this scenario hasn't arisen before and she may have been accommodated previously in some way OP hasn't thought of.

Butchyrestingface · 18/03/2025 16:35

Trolleysaregoodforemployment · 18/03/2025 16:04

I wouldn't waste your time worrying about me assuming the OP is in England. You have bigger problems if that is your main gripe about this thread and its subject matter.

I have already posted to this thread about the main topic so it's far from my 'biggest gripe'. II see from PP that you've failed to respond to their points on the main topic so seems to be something of a habit.

Trolleysaregoodforemployment · 18/03/2025 16:04

Butchyrestingface · 18/03/2025 13:33

And ignorant assumptions that UK = England need to be called out when they arise. Happens all the time on here and it's very dull.

In this particular case, it didn't even occur to PP what I meant and she started chatting about 'overseas'.

Edited

I wouldn't waste your time worrying about me assuming the OP is in England. You have bigger problems if that is your main gripe about this thread and its subject matter.

skintasabint · 18/03/2025 15:31

My employer had something similar. Lady in question was completely fine about certain foods we served then a month into the job refused point blank to touch them, even in the packaging. It was a nightmare because near enough all of our foods have this certain item in them. When we put them into the oven she could smell it cooking so would stand in the corridor. My employer didn’t keep her on at the end of probation. Shame because she was lovely but it made our jobs twice as hard

Ponderingwindow · 18/03/2025 14:56

this is definitely an issue for HR and whatever legal team they decide to consult.

i personally believe that her request actively discriminates against other people on the basis of sex, a protected characteristic, and should therefore not be allowed.

honeybeetheoneandonly · 18/03/2025 14:46

I don't understand how this has not been an issue before. How has she been able to get to senior level in a client meeting based role without this having curbed her career choice very early on? Has she only ever had someone with her or always made sure there was at least one woman during all her appointments?

Parsley1234 · 18/03/2025 14:26

@Maddy70 that would be completely unprofessional it’s not a tea party it’s a business meeting

RachelGreep87 · 18/03/2025 13:46

Maddy70 · 18/03/2025 13:37

Tell her that of she has a friend who would volunteer to accompany her to that's fine

Are you on drugs? A friend, really?
This woman is a professional being sent out to a client site to carry out work. It is not acceptable to bring a friend.

Maddy70 · 18/03/2025 13:37

Tell her that of she has a friend who would volunteer to accompany her to that's fine

Butchyrestingface · 18/03/2025 13:33

Pepjjgf · 18/03/2025 13:31

Think it's just most of the Mumsnet userbase is based in England.

And ignorant assumptions that UK = England need to be called out when they arise. Happens all the time on here and it's very dull.

In this particular case, it didn't even occur to PP what I meant and she started chatting about 'overseas'.

Pepjjgf · 18/03/2025 13:31

Butchyrestingface · 18/03/2025 13:28

I have ready the thread, and more specifically, OP's own posts. I cannot see where she states she is in England, which is why I asked the question. But if you don't want to answer it, fine.

Think it's just most of the Mumsnet userbase is based in England.

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