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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To send an employee to a client even though she refuses because of her religion?

640 replies

GelatinousDynamo · 15/03/2025 13:30

I have a new employee in my team, she is a devout Muslim. She's been with us since January and there were no issues so far, she's getting along well with everyone and her performance was fine. I sent her an email on Friday afternoon to say that our client has now (finally) prepared all necessary documents and that she should go there and go over everything with them one day next week. She wrote me back today that she can't do that because only men work in the department and she can't spend the day alone with strange men (because of her religion).

AIBU to insist that she does her job and goes there or would that be religious discrimination? She shares an office with a male colleague and has never complained about it. She's the first devout Muslim I've ever had on my team and I honestly have no experience at all with such issues. She's the only one who has the necessary experience and isn't already scheduled elsewhere.

OP posts:
Regretsmorethanafew · 15/03/2025 18:08

TourangaLeila · 15/03/2025 13:57

This would 100% be discrimination. Discrimination means treating someone unfairly or less favourably on the basis of a protected characteristic.

Is there an adjustment you can put in place to make this possible for her? It would be the reasonable and right thing to do.

Basically, she needs a female chaperone.

Firing her on the basis of not being able to do something because of her religion would also be discrimination.

You are not correct

Cetim · 15/03/2025 18:07

This is tricky. Because how devout is devout? Does she pray during work hours? Does she receive any company benefits that she hasn't earned per se like company stocks/ dividends? (I ask that because a strict interpretation of Islam is that Muslims should not earn interest etc on money), does she wear full Burka only showing her eyes? Sometimes culture and religion get mixed up and people pick their values based on culture and cite religion as their reason. There are some devout Muslims who would have no issue doing what you have asked her to do but may have issues with things she is comfortable doing. To cover yourself, you could meet with her and ask her to take you through her beliefs and the impact this would have on the work place and her doing her duties. Then you could look into REASONABLE adjustments and I say that in capital letters because sometimes people think adjustments have to mean employers bend over backwards. No they only have to be reasonable. Get things clear now. She has a right to set her boundaries but you also have a right to set yours too. Hopefully a meeting and a plan in place will help get the best from her whilst also allowing her to follow her faith.

MillicentFaucet · 15/03/2025 18:07

Diningtableornot · 15/03/2025 17:58

Maybe nothing can be done in the case OP has mentioned. It's a bit grim though that the first thought was how to get rid of this woman rather than see if there is any possible way of making it work. Even if meant the woman herself bringing in an aunt or sister to stand outside the door!

Taking your auntie to a professional meeting as a chaperone is the maddest thing I've read on MN for a while.
Do the people coming up with these "chaperone" suggestions work in the public sector perhaps? I can't think of anywhere else with an endless supply of available female staff and an extremely generous budget?

Peaceandquietandacuppa · 15/03/2025 18:03

GelatinousDynamo · 15/03/2025 16:13

It's a bit early to say, really. She has good technical knowledge and clever ideas, but still needs experience. This was her chance to gain it, I really thought of this project as an opportunity for her to develop.

To answer another question: She knows that she'll only be dealing with men, because her and I have met with this client before. She did not raise it as a possible issue at that time, btw. And asking the client to accommodate her is a) ridiculous, we'll never get hired by them again if we try that, and b) impossible, it's really only men we're working with there. And yes, it has to be on site.

Can you just fail her probation? I would cover this instance by going myself and then fail her probation (and seek HR/ legal advice on wording) She refuses to perform the key tasks of the role despite having known what the role involves, so to me it’s reasonable.

Diningtableornot · 15/03/2025 18:02

user902101 · 15/03/2025 18:01

Lots of other people piled on with that. The OP asked:

AIBU to insist that she does her job and goes there or would that be religious discrimination?

Sorry yes, I don't mean everyone said that or that the OP did, but it seemed to be the first thought for several posters.

user902101 · 15/03/2025 18:01

Diningtableornot · 15/03/2025 17:58

Maybe nothing can be done in the case OP has mentioned. It's a bit grim though that the first thought was how to get rid of this woman rather than see if there is any possible way of making it work. Even if meant the woman herself bringing in an aunt or sister to stand outside the door!

Lots of other people piled on with that. The OP asked:

AIBU to insist that she does her job and goes there or would that be religious discrimination?

FleshLiabilities · 15/03/2025 17:59

sellotapechicken · 15/03/2025 17:56

It’s Ramadan at the moment. Maybe that has some bearing on her decision? Maybe after Ramadan she’ll be ok seeing as she’s ok to share an office with a man etc

How does it being Ramadan at the moment affect anything?

Diningtableornot · 15/03/2025 17:58

user902101 · 15/03/2025 17:56

I agree. The thing is that examples you’ve given don’t cost money. How much would you be prepared to reduce your own income to support someone else’s religion? I think that’s OP’s situation because there’s not any other way to accommodate it

Maybe nothing can be done in the case OP has mentioned. It's a bit grim though that the first thought was how to get rid of this woman rather than see if there is any possible way of making it work. Even if meant the woman herself bringing in an aunt or sister to stand outside the door!

user902101 · 15/03/2025 17:58

SerendipityJane · 15/03/2025 17:50

I was in my first proper job (sandwich placement) when Suzy Lamlugh disappeared. She'd be 64 now. Maybe with grandkids.

When we visit people in their homes or empty buildings obviously there are extra precautions. It’s not usually the same risk assessment for a known client at their place of work.

sellotapechicken · 15/03/2025 17:56

It’s Ramadan at the moment. Maybe that has some bearing on her decision? Maybe after Ramadan she’ll be ok seeing as she’s ok to share an office with a man etc

user902101 · 15/03/2025 17:56

Diningtableornot · 15/03/2025 17:29

I think I must have been lucky to have worked in sectors where people will try to accommodate the wishes and needs of colleagues and contacts. They may not always manage it, but the starting point would be 'what can we do to make this possible?' rather than 'how can we get rid of this person'. A Muslim colleague was given a cupboard to use as a prayer room so he could pray at the required times. Someone with a complicated visual impairment was allowed not to go to IT-based courses but to learn the content in other ways. People helped each other.

I agree. The thing is that examples you’ve given don’t cost money. How much would you be prepared to reduce your own income to support someone else’s religion? I think that’s OP’s situation because there’s not any other way to accommodate it

Aliceinunderland · 15/03/2025 17:56

You do know it's Ramadan don't you? I mean surely a quick research into the Muslim faith would help you understand that being completely alone with men for Muslim women is a big no no. There are always creative ways of doing things and I don't see how it's such a big deal to be accommodating of people who practice a different faith to yourself. Why not ask the client if they have a female member of staff who can assist?

phoenixrosehere · 15/03/2025 17:55

GelatinousDynamo · 15/03/2025 16:13

It's a bit early to say, really. She has good technical knowledge and clever ideas, but still needs experience. This was her chance to gain it, I really thought of this project as an opportunity for her to develop.

To answer another question: She knows that she'll only be dealing with men, because her and I have met with this client before. She did not raise it as a possible issue at that time, btw. And asking the client to accommodate her is a) ridiculous, we'll never get hired by them again if we try that, and b) impossible, it's really only men we're working with there. And yes, it has to be on site.

Did you tell her that she would be going to visit clients alone before you hired her?

Delphinium20 · 15/03/2025 17:52

I would put this back on her. Ask her for suggested solutions because she's refusing to do the job you asked her to, so lay out your very good reasons (will lose client if we bill them more, adding a chaperone will increase costs, no one else available to do this, we hired you thinking you could do the job, etc.) and also tell her how much you want to help her succeed and ask her what would she do in your situation!

SerendipityJane · 15/03/2025 17:50

Flossflower · 15/03/2025 17:48

It is not only Muslims that need chaperoning. Years ago when HMRC did routine inspections they came to see me. The tax inspector was a man and he was obliged to bring a woman with him because I was a lone female.
My elderly aunt was having a downstairs bathroom built. Although the work was private it was being done by a company that worked with the local authority and the health visitor had recommended them. The architect came with a woman as he didn’t know I would be there and he said this was company policy.

I was in my first proper job (sandwich placement) when Suzy Lamlugh disappeared. She'd be 64 now. Maybe with grandkids.

Delphinium20 · 15/03/2025 17:50

AlternativeView · 15/03/2025 16:18

@FeministUnderTheCatriarchy actually people who areu Muslim believe you are born it so there's no choice

Just because they believe it, doesn't make it true. Some people believe the Earth is flat.

outerspacepotato · 15/03/2025 17:50

Diningtableornot · 15/03/2025 17:29

I think I must have been lucky to have worked in sectors where people will try to accommodate the wishes and needs of colleagues and contacts. They may not always manage it, but the starting point would be 'what can we do to make this possible?' rather than 'how can we get rid of this person'. A Muslim colleague was given a cupboard to use as a prayer room so he could pray at the required times. Someone with a complicated visual impairment was allowed not to go to IT-based courses but to learn the content in other ways. People helped each other.

Accomodations are a bridge.

LoveWine123 · 15/03/2025 17:48

GelatinousDynamo · 15/03/2025 16:13

It's a bit early to say, really. She has good technical knowledge and clever ideas, but still needs experience. This was her chance to gain it, I really thought of this project as an opportunity for her to develop.

To answer another question: She knows that she'll only be dealing with men, because her and I have met with this client before. She did not raise it as a possible issue at that time, btw. And asking the client to accommodate her is a) ridiculous, we'll never get hired by them again if we try that, and b) impossible, it's really only men we're working with there. And yes, it has to be on site.

Has she offered any solutions?

Flossflower · 15/03/2025 17:48

It is not only Muslims that need chaperoning. Years ago when HMRC did routine inspections they came to see me. The tax inspector was a man and he was obliged to bring a woman with him because I was a lone female.
My elderly aunt was having a downstairs bathroom built. Although the work was private it was being done by a company that worked with the local authority and the health visitor had recommended them. The architect came with a woman as he didn’t know I would be there and he said this was company policy.

AnnoyedAsAllHeck · 15/03/2025 17:47

OldCottageGreenhouse · 15/03/2025 13:43

Imagine if it was a devout Christian employee saying they can’t attend a meeting with a gay/trans client, because of their religion. Would you be saying the same? In that case both side would have a protected characteristic. Employee citing religious reasons and a client who’s a protected characteristic

That is a good point, and wonder what the protocol would be in that case.

I think it all can get quite confusing and frustrating.

Perhaps job descriptions need to be more detailed and covered before people are hired. "Would you have trouble working one on one with (insert possibility here) at their home, if needed?"

SerendipityJane · 15/03/2025 17:46

Ketchupbroc · 15/03/2025 17:22

Love it when a poster rides in on their stallion and gives the thread a piece of their mind whilst contributing bugger all itself to the matter at hand! 😂

Probably identifying as a man for a day then.

UnhappyAndYouKnowIt · 15/03/2025 17:37

I've had a colleague who was devout Muslim, (young, unmarried) and similarly unable to be alone, unchaperoned with men.

It wasn't a massive issue because there was always at least one woman nearby. If she was in an office with a man, the door would be open. If we had to send her to an area with only men, we would have just sent someone else along for propriety.

Bailamosse · 15/03/2025 17:33

Diningtableornot · 15/03/2025 17:00

I didn't mean that the client should pay someone to sit there during the meeting. But if there happens to be a woman in the next door office who would be happy to swap desks for the morning, why not ask her to do it? If there isn't, they can say no. Personally I would be delighted to do this kind of thing to support a Muslim woman in the workplace.

And I would absolutely not. Women should be able to fully participate in work without needing babysat for fairytale reasons. I would do absolutely nothing to support this.

Diningtableornot · 15/03/2025 17:29

user902101 · 15/03/2025 17:23

Do you work in a male dominated industry?
If you feel totally secure it’s easy to do things like this. But if you’re a minority this sort of thing costs you in social capital - so not everyone is in a position to do this. Shame it’s that way but that’s my experience of it

I think I must have been lucky to have worked in sectors where people will try to accommodate the wishes and needs of colleagues and contacts. They may not always manage it, but the starting point would be 'what can we do to make this possible?' rather than 'how can we get rid of this person'. A Muslim colleague was given a cupboard to use as a prayer room so he could pray at the required times. Someone with a complicated visual impairment was allowed not to go to IT-based courses but to learn the content in other ways. People helped each other.

outerspacepotato · 15/03/2025 17:26

OP, say you refuse to provide accomodation to her religious beliefs in this and try to let her go.

What will you do if she comes back and says you asked her to do something she told you violated her religious principles and that her work until that point had been fine?

Will HR back you?

Does this look targeted?

Think about that before you refuse accomodations.