To think some people are really snobby about tradespeople?

I guess it’s just what you value. I had nothing to do with the people at school who became practical people because I was an academic one and yes everyone looked down on them. I value education and I guess I prefer people who are educated. Great you can support yourself by putting up some shelves, but I’m probably not going to hang out with that person. But I do genuinely think it’s great they’ve found something they enjoy, are good at and can support themselves and their families by doing. It’s also of course important for society to have good trades people, because we need them. I guess it’s a class thing and it was ever thus. I always find it interesting that even the really successful trades people who are earning over £150k, never have their kids in independent schools. I’ve asked a few about it and they looked bemused and said school is a waste of time, why would I pay for it when it’s free. Just a very different value set to others. Nothing wrong with it, just different

Yes most people are certainly very snobby about trades people. I guess there are a few things going on. Typically they’re not very educated and this shows in their behaviour. I’ve met a small number of trades people who I think are actually intelligent people with good morals. The rest I’m afraid are the opposite. I think that’s likely to be many other people’s experiences and so that helps to form their opinion. All of them end up being tarred with the same brush. They are so very easily stereotyped - can be found in greggs, eat terrible food, are quite rough, tax dodging, rip people off, drive badly in their vans, lazy, can’t be trusted, read the Daily Mail or some other right wing trash, racist. I have no doubt that many are intelligent and industrious and I know this because I’ve met some but there are a lot that fall into that category. I also think that, again, whilst some are very handy and are clearly very capable in their trade, it’s a largely unregulated world and there are many idiots that don’t have a clue and do utterly shoddy work. Everyone has had personal experience of being ripped of by one of those people and that clouds their opinions. It’s just a shame that those who behave badly and are bad at their jobs spoil it for the rest.

I'm in a construction adjacent job working on HS2 currently. If I do an evening shift and finish after midnight I make £350. Only mate I know who makes this in a day is a systems architect and spends a lot of time working away in Europe.

My mate drives a tanker and makes £65k. He's on 4 on/4 off too so has as many days off as he works.

A lot of middle class people just aren't very knowledgeable about the trade sector and have no idea that the average trade salary is now £10k higher than the average graduate salary. Tradespeople also get on the property ladder three years earlier than graduates on average and don't have tens of thousands of debt upon starting their first job.

Most trades are crying out for older tradespeople to train to become trainers and assessors.

So no reason to continue if you're not physically fit enough as you get older.

Plus you don't have to stay as tradesperson if you ever were. You can go into estimating surveying or procurement or supervisory roles. Construction is an enormously varied industry. Domestic tradespeople are only one part of it.

IME people who are clueless in practical areas are grateful to have people who are good at it!

I've seen the attitude you describe. People thinking tradies are thick because of their timekeeping or organisations skills or communication skills.
I grew up working class and am now middle class, for context.
I now mostly see the attitude of 'tradies make a mint' (in a positive way) and lots and lots of stories about tradies incorrectly declaring income to dodge the tax man or pay less child support than they should. One of my friends works in the trades and he says it's absolutely rife.
You do get the reverse snobbery thing too - lots of people in trades think everyone with a desk job 'sits on their arse all day answering emails, anyone could do that'. But I understand the defensiveness of this, if you yourself have dealt with people's shitty attitudes.

I don't think young kids are really being put off going into trades because of snobbery though - said friend volunteers at college open days and often the challenge is how do you get job like plumbing, in and out of people's houses, getting dirty, hard work, on call at weekends etc, sound more appealing than a 9-5 office (or wfh) job where you can earn more? Yeah, a tradespeople can be on 50k, but that's a lot of physical labour and the stress and responsibility of running your own business, if you do a computing degree you'll make that in much nicer conditions...

I remember my mum basically thought hairdressing was for really common girls...she was rather sneering about it despite spending a lot of time in the hairdressers!

Just ridiculous isn't it? Hairdressing is a brilliant skill to have...you can work for yourself, work from home, work in clients homes, move areas and still work.... meanwhile I have a degree and have only managed to work in crappy office jobs, bored out of my head and wishing the day could end.

Yeah, it’s just snobbery pure and simple.
When I was in high school (early 2000’s), my school did a vocational program for people who wanted it, where those students went to the local college a few days a week and learned trades - plumbing, construction, auto mechanics, hairdressing etc.
Everyone seemed to think those programs were for “thick kids”.
But now 20 years later? Of those “thick kids” I’m still in contact with, one of them now works for one of the most successful property developers in the area and is taking home upwards of £50k. One of the girls is a hairdresser who owns her own salon, employs a staff of 4 or 5 and is making a mint.
Honestly, thinking about my own DCs? I’d be more than happy for my son to learn to become an electrician or something - it’s a trade that will never die. He’s never going to be out of a job! Obviously if they want to go to university, I’d be all for that as well. But the idea that tradesmen and other skilled workers are somehow looked down upon by certain folk boils my piss.

I mean loads of manual labour HAS been replaced by technology. Skynet is a threat to us all!

I think it depends on your circles. I only know one person who is snobby about tradespeople which shocked me. I had never met anybody like that before.

Ask those snobs how long they think it will be before they are replaced by AI ?

Because trades won’t be.

What needs to change is the culture of pushing all ‘non academic’ kids into trade courses/trade routes. Tradies are smart, they have good logic/problem solving/attention to detail/common sense etc. The amount of kids who honestly cannot fathom how a ruler works are put onto a carpentry’s course.

@Jamjarcandlestick This is not necessarily a new phenomenon which has sprung up since the increase in people going to University.

My father was a builder. He started as a young boy back in the 1930s and was expected to serve a 7 year apprenticeship. (Actually his got curtailed by about a year owing to him being called up in WW2!)

Anyway, after the war he went back in to building and became a highly skilled tradesman. As such, he was often the person responsible for overseeing upcoming apprentices. I remember him saying that, from about the 1970s, the standard of boys taking up apprenticeships declined. This coincided roughly with when the local Secondary Modern became a Comprehensive.

His theory was that when it was a Secondary Modern the teachers thought it was a good thing to encourage able boys in to a trade. However, when it was established as a Comprehensive, the brighter boys were encouraged to do O levels etc. and steered away from manual jobs and trades so, the boys doing the apprentice route were often the least bright.

He frequently came home with exasperated tales of boys who, as you say, couldn't work a ruler and completely messed up simple measurements. Sometimes their excuse was that they didn't understand feet and inches because at school it was metric. So my father, who had had to learn how to function in the metric system, would patiently give them the measurements required in metres - only for them to mess it up even more spectacularly!

Unless you want to be a doctor or a lawyer etc going to uni is just a way of landing up with a mediocre job and lots of debt! Its nothing special anymore because everyone does it! There's absolutely nothing wrong with being a tradesman and some of the best earning people i know work in the trades.

There was always someone telling me how I should do my job!

I don't get that. So you'd complain if they don't get back to you in 4 days but you'd complain if they leave in the afternoon to spend time doing the admin?

You don’t get to dictate what a day is though.

Wow, I would far far rather employ a woman to come and do work. I wish there were more women as I know plenty of women who don't want to keep inviting strange men into their homes while they are home alone.

I think people aren't so snobby about tradespeople in my country (Finland), going to vocational school to learn a trade (that includes traditional trades and other things like hospitality, health care, catering etc.) instead of high school is popular, about half of 16 year olds choose it and when I was in vocational school last year (training in aircraft maintenance because I decided I wanted a complete change in direction) I saw a lot of women and girls studying the traditional trades too.

My bloke is an electrician and his customers are generally pleased with him. Whenever he finishes a job he comes home with little presents his customers have given him, like chocolates and biscuits.

Except if I'm paying for your day then you should work that day. You should use a different day for admin/quoting. If that means you can only take on 4 days a week and use the 5th for admin/invoices/quotes. If I'm paying you for a 4 day job, and you use the equivalent of 3 days doing the job and the other quarter of the time popping round places to price up then surely you can see why i'd be pissed off and definitely be wanting a discount. I think the best self employed people allow enough free time in their schedules to complete things like quotes and invoices when they aren't 'on the job' for another customer. The bad ones ones cram every possible job in to try and eek out as much cash as possible but ultimately end up delivering badly on a lot of the things as they are now stretched too thin, turning up late because other jobs over-ran, because they started late because they didn't leave enough time to get materials and knock on and knock on.

My point was more graduates and trade are not mutually exclusive.

Wait until a tradesperson working in your house asks to use the toilet! That always sets MN absolutely ablaze with batshittery and pearl clutching! 😲🙄

A tradesman will always be in demand and have regular work. They’re essential workers really and we couldn’t do without them. I couldn’t have got my flat looking the way it does without them.