Putin has been facilitating migration into Europe to destabilise society

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Quick archive link to avoid the Telegraph paywall.

The xenophobes were small enough in number to easily be ignored.

It was the vicious accusations of racism and xenophobia which made conversations about immigration impossible. MN offers plenty of evidence of that.

Exactly. And given the moderation it's deleted anyway.

Now we're under a year in with policies that will allow the exploitation to grow, quickly too.

So then what? Just wait for the next GE. It's far enough away for this to be a real issue.

The xenophobes were small enough in number to easily be ignored.

It was the vicious accusations of racism and xenophobia which made conversations about immigration impossible. MN offers plenty of evidence of that.

UKIP all but disappeared after the referendum and now because nothing has changed wrt to immigration we have Reform. Some people seem to think they will implode before the next election, they could be right, but be careful what you wish for, my prediction is that if they do implode then what will rise from the ashes will be far more extreme.

Where are we now? The populist right rising in popularity all over Europe. It's a very predictable reaction to cancel culture, the writing was on the wall at least 13 years ago but it didn't stop the insults coming from the "tolerant and inclusive left". You reap what you sow but sadly so will the rest of us too.

Policing conversations about immigration seems to have been a massive own goal so far but feel free to keep on doing the same thing and expecting a different result.

Claim: MIgrAnTS aRE moRE liKeLY to LIvE in SOciAL housing.

The reality:

Migrants have lower homeownership rates than the UK-born, but the exact figures depend on the definition of a migrant
People born overseas are far more likely to be in private rented accommodation than UK-born people. In 2021, 43% of non-UK-born people living in England and Wales owned their home, compared to 67% of the UK-born (Figure 1). Residents born in EU countries had lower homeownership rates than their non-EU counterparts, with over half living in privately rented accommodation.
The foreign-born were marginally less likely to live in social housing, which includes social rented housing (typically at 50% of market price), affordable rented housing (at around 80% of market price), and rent-to-buy/own housing schemes (which allows people to rent a home at a reduced price while saving for a deposit to buy it).
The picture is similar in Northern Ireland, while homeownership rates are lower in London for all country of birth groups.

ALSO

Migrants who had lived in the UK for shorter periods were also less likely to live in social housing. This trend reflects the fact that people with most types of temporary immigration status are ineligible for social housing. See the Understanding the Policy section above and the Housing Rights Information website for details about the different housing rights of migrants.

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/migrants-and-housing-in-the-uk/#:~:text=Migrants%20have%20lower%20homeownership%20rates,all%20country%20of%20birth%20groups.

I do believe asylum seekers and refugees may have higher rates of social housing but they are:

1. Not economic migrants
2. Not allowed to work (at least pending approval of their case.)

I agree and in a way I can't wait until it finally catches up with them and theirs.

If the figures are so “difficult to find” how are you able to quote this?

This goes back to my issue with this discussion. How is reasonable debate possible with people who mistake their feelings and stereotypes as facts?

Can you provide a link to that image?

And also a link to the breakdown of benefits (only one form of social security spending) my immigration status? All the data shows immigrants and UK nationals employed at similar rates.

And I have sourced all my data.

But you are wrong though.

It’s not an impossible discussion to have if people don’t resort to tired stereotypes. You have not done that instead of making it a silly boxing match between middle class and working class Britons.

You claimed that economic migrants don’t want to work. The fact that there are some migrants who don’t work does not make your earlier statement true.

You can see that right? You also claimed that migrants were taking our jobs but now claim that they don’t work. Which is it?

As for your claims about migrants not working:

In 2022 migrant men were more likely to be employed that UK born men. For women the reverse was true but only slightly:

https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/migrants-in-the-uk-labour-market-an-overview/

In 2022, the employment rate of working-age migrant men (82%) was higher than that of the UK-born (78%) (Figure 2). Most region-of-origin groups had higher employment rates than UK-born men. Among women, the overall employment rate for working-age migrants was 71%, slightly lower than for the UK-born (73%). However, EU-born women had unusually high employment rates (80%).

For more recent figures - from the last quarter of 2024:

In the fourth quarter of 2024, approximately 81.9 percent of people born in the European Union but living in the UK were employed, compared with 74.7 percent for UK nationals and 74.4 percent for people outside the EU and UK. Since 2006, the employment rate for people born in the EU has consistently been higher than UK nationals and non-EU nationals.

Economic migrants have similar employment rates to UK nationals and for EU economic migrants they are more likely to be in work than UK nationals.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/915732/immigrant-employment-rate-uk/

I tried to research your claim about the percentage of migrants in London and Birmingham in social housing and out of work and data is hard to come by.

Can you cite a source for your claim?

”You would be wrong”

Thank you for this perfect example of why this discussion has been impossible to have.

“You are wrong”. Full stop.

😁

I would suggest that indoctrinated, middle class, uni educated professionals who labelled any discussion as racist/xenophobic and ruthlessly and abusively shut it down are equally responsible for the lack of coherent, reasonable discussion around mass migration.

You're not wrong here. Maybe not even equal but more so. Whether people will actually vote to deal with it I guess we'll see.

We're certainly in the mire with nothing to stop the exploitation of soft policies for the next few years.

The classism of MN absolutely beggars belief, and the inability for posters to see it in themselves is fascinating. I’ve been waiting for a thread such as this for years, waiting for us to reach the point when certain types of MNetters themselves began to feel the squeeze and I admit to taking some grim satisfaction in it.

Why do you think the benefits bill has suddenly spiralled out of control in the last few years.

Have you seen the breakdown in nationality for those receiving these benefits? The majority are from the UK, as is right, but increasing numbers are not.

And the government has decided the solution to this is to attack and remove the safety net for the most vulnerable in society, the most severely disabled. There will be blood spilt if the rumours for the spring budget are true.

You would be wrong.

But that is your right.

You also have a very simplistic way of viewing things: working class in the blue corner, middle class in the red corner.

As if there aren’t working class people who object to the xenophobes and racists who try to derail reasonable discussion and if there aren’t middle class people who are also racists and xenophobes.

Your stereotypes are tiring.

Go and look up the stats for none working, benefit claiming migrants housed in social housing. Just look in for example London, Leicester or Birmingham to get a sense of things. These figures are obsfucated and difficult to find all in one place so you’ll have to do a bit of work to find them but I am sure you’ll manage if you want to.

Racism and xenophobia is always a problem. That’s what I object to. (Such as claiming migrants arriving don’t want to work and just leach off us.
I don’t know how they simultaneously “steal our job” but also “have no intention of working”.)

A discussion about the challenges of mass migration that does not lean into racism and xenophobia is absolutely fine.

That you seem not to see that difference and think it’s just me objecting to “ not WHAT they say but HOW they say it, is disturbing.”)

I would suggest that indoctrinated, middle class, uni educated professionals who labelled any discussion as racist/xenophobic and ruthlessly and abusively shut it down are equally responsible for the lack of coherent, reasonable discussion around mass migration.

And yet every single time the discussion has been attempted, they are told they’re racist/bigoted/Gammon etc.

Agree you only have to look at mn over last couple of years.

Only it’s not working any longer as many of those who come now are economic migrants who have absolutely no intention of working.

This makes no sense @Adamante .

Economic migrant simply refers to those migrating for economic purposes as opposed to seeking asylum / refuge. Why do you assume none of them want to work?

And yet every single time the discussion has been attempted, they are told they’re racist/bigoted/Gammon etc. See the point I made about the working classes, who have always been the first to be affected but who are often not able to organise, or articulate their issues effectively - those are often the “xenophobes” you’re referring to.

So essentially it’s not what they say it’s how they say it that’s the problem?

And that post you quoted is an example of how xenophobes have ruined the ability to have those discussion.

The UK will soon be an authoritarian shithole too

That’s an incredibly high number of students born outside the UK. Even in my inner city Birmingham schools most of the kids were British.

This. Exactly this.

People argue that there is nothing racist about objecting to large scale immigration and they are right…but too often bigots and xenophobes start interjecting (conflating “ethnic minority” with “non British”, engaging in collective blame and responsibility, making wild claims and pushing and promoting stereotypes) and it pushes reasonable people away from the discussion or leads to them pre-empting the xenophobia / racism before it starts.)