Putin has been facilitating migration into Europe to destabilise society

I know the modern left has a habit of changing the meaning of words so perhaps you can define what you mean by "abhor".

My dictionary says, "regard with disgust or hatred"

Synonyms include detest, hate and loathe.

It would be so nice if a genuinely important conversation wasn't derailed by bitchy personal putdowns. Play the ball, not the (wo)man.

Clearly you have exceptionally limited experience @Dappy777. You should get out more.

I do despise the extreme left, but that's because I know them. When I was young, I belonged to far-left groups. It was my encounter with actual left-wing people that turned me into a conservative. Having observed them at close quarters, I'd divide them into certain types:

1. The bitter, hate-filled sort. Frankie Boyle is a good example of this type. And they're not always people who've grown up in poverty. Often, they're just people with a sociopathic streak – people who want to smash things up and antagonise others. You see it in their attitude to immigration. They know that mass immigration upsets people and disrupts communities – and that's why they support it.

2. Those in search of a new religion. It has been done to death, but the parallels between Marxism and organised religion are astonishing. The Marxists have their holy books (Das Kapital, The Communist Manifesto), their martyrs (Rosa Luxemburg, Trotsky, etc), their prophets (Marx, Lenin, Engels) and even their promised land (a socialist utopia).

3. The show-offs, poseurs and attention-seekers. Anyone who has been to university has probably met this type. Rik in The Young Ones is a good example. Russell Brand is another.

4. The stupid, narrow-minded 'intellectual' sort. These usually come to left wing politics through books. But all they read is socialist literature. Often, they have zero emotional intelligence and cannot understand why people don't agree with them. Everything is obvious. People should be equal and everyone should be paid the same amount and there should be open borders and world peace. It's as simple and black and white as 1 + 1. They have no sense of how messy and complicated and irrational and inconsistent the real world is.

Obviously that doesn't cover every single person with left-wing views. But in my experience, the majority of hard-left people fall into one of those groups.

But you’re the only person who’s mentioned hate. 🤷‍♀️

I don't think I've ever heard anyone who votes for right wing parties claim that it's hateful to describe the political right as "the right".

It's only "the left" or "the modern left" as I prefer to call them who see hate everywhere, in fact their whole reason for being seems to be "hate detection" which is why they find so much of it.

I've never voted for a right wing party in my life but my affection for reality makes me unwelcome with the modern left. I'm surprisingly OK with that.

I merely pointed out that the term “the left” is rarely if ever used by anyone who actually votes that way. Your extrapolation is bizarre to say the least.

Ah, of course, disagreement is hate. It's so predictable and frankly boring.

Actually those who refer to “the left” are predominantly those who abhor them @FOJN.

I know they describe themselves as "the left" but the detachment from reality has nothing to do with genuine left wing politics, well it didn't in the past but I suppose the "liberal elite" have staged a hostile take over so maybe they are "the left" now. You are correct about their dominance in media, academia, the arts AND also the civil service.

They seem to have siloed themselves on Bluesky and think they are the majority but I think the political scientists, who aren't ideologically captured, estimate they represent 15% of the population at most.

The terminology of the post kind of gives it away - hysterical, cult, loons.

I gave up the day she called me a fascist because I said an illegal immigrant convicted of rape should be deported.

I doubt that was all it was, you were clearly looking for a fight.

The other problem is the hysterical and irrational attitude of the left. I have argued about immigration with a left-wing colleague, but it's a waste of time. It's like talking to a religious fundamentalist, or the member of a cult – she isn't open to discussion or reason. She already knows all the answers, and that's that. She's right and we're wrong, end of story. I gave up the day she called me a fascist because I said an illegal immigrant convicted of rape should be deported. That's the kind of loons we're dealing with. Unfortunately, such people have a massive influence. The left dominate academia, the BBC, the universities, the arts and much of the media.

I agree. People have been raising this for a few years.

Keep reading 😂

We're certainly in the mire with nothing to stop the exploitation of soft policies for the next few years.

What does that even mean? I’ve read it four times and it still doesn’t make sense.

@JHound

You are the absolute epitome of the why this discussion has been so obstructed. You cannot admit there is any even slight value in anything any other poster holding alternative views might have to say. You are utterly entrenched in your own ideological position. Now the problems are beginning to affect us all and the discussion forced to become mainstream now the impact of mass uncontrolled migration is clear and can no longer be hidden, but still you deny and cling to your luxury beliefs and “it’s all the xenophobes fault anyway” rhetoric. I get it, it’s hard to acknowledge when you’ve been wrong, and you’re certainly not alone, so you must hide behind your carefully chosen links and “evidence”. In around a decade, maybe less, this situation will implode and I imagine you’ll still be here with your fingers in your ears telling yourself that if only those who tried to raise the issues at the outset had done it an acceptable and politely articulated manner we wouldn’t be in this mess. I hope that is of some comfort to you.

Archived link.

You seem very keen on people providing evidence for their claims and yet you casually assert that xenophobes are both the loudest and the majority?

Where is your evidence?

People wanting to discuss population growth of nearly a million people in one year are not targeting individuals they want a conversation about an unsustainable government policy.

@JHound no clearly not that. Accusations of bigotry or racism where none is apparent as @Adamante said. There have been plenty of posters doing that over the last few years.

The inability to address a soft system which is enabling others to exploit it as in the op.

Now we're under a year in with nothing to counter it, so a few more years of a growing problem.

Along with Ronald Regan, George Bush Sr and John Major.

We in the West thought we had fixed things permanently. It seemed inconceivable anyone would want to restart the Cold War and we wound down militaries in response - it was a win/win at the time.

Everyone knows we’ve lost our culture, in London. No more chirpy Londoners proud of their great capital. It’s trashed. Broke Britain, indeed. Job is done.

AND we aren’t supposed to mention it.

What reaction? People discussing it, pointing out inconsistencies and asking people to cite their sources?

At which point those asking for sources and pointing out inconsistencies are accused of trying to “shut down debate” and “hating working class people”.

I question who is actually trying to “shut down the discussion.”

I disagree. They are the loudest and the majority. Although of course how you view it will depend on if you are a target.

And even if I was being charitable and say the people who appear to be loudly racist and xenophobic are being neither: when people make wild outlandish claims that are not supported by the available data, then it’s fair to ask what it is rooted in.

And where are “discussions on immigration being policed”?

It is literally THE topic de jour and has been for decades!

@JHound this topic has come up on mn over the years and there has been the same reaction each time as @Adamante has posted.