Gentle Parenting has failed, lets accept this.

The argument let's call it a smack when we hit our children. It makes it sound better... Works both ways.

Let's describe it as hitting or beating children, it sounds worse.

I genuinely believe that smacking, is not hitting your children. I completely agree that in many cases it's born of a lost temper or borne of a desire to subjugate children. But, that's not always the case. I have talked with my PIL and heard there views on parenting within their culture a d society and can see that far from an anger response or a desire to subjugate their children, it is there to punish I know we don't like that word here, behaviour that has been for warned and explained and children who then decide to cross that boundary know what will happen when they do.

You may not agree with it, and that is fine. But I have come to respect that viewpoint. Whether or not I or my husband smack our children is not the point I am making. Yes my husband did once smack my son on the back of the hand when he kept taking other people food. This behaviour had been clearly explained as wrong on several occasions. You may think my husband is an awful man, again your welcome. I won't waste my breath defending him, as it won't change your opinion.

I was merely suggesting that our culture may shape what we think about these thing. There are many things that other cultures do not like about UK culture. Often what we do however is write off

I genuinely believe that smacking, is not hitting your children. I completely agree that in many cases it's born of a lost temper or borne of a desire to subjugate children. But, that's not always the case. I have talked with my PIL and heard there views on parenting within their culture a d society and can see that far from an anger response or a desire to subjugate their children, it is there to punish I know we don't like that word here, behaviour that has been for warned and explained and children who then decide to cross that boundary know what will happen when they do.

You may not agree with it, and that is fine. But I have come to respect that viewpoint. Whether or not I or my husband smack our children is not the point I am making. Yes my husband did once smack my son on the back of the hand when he kept taking other people food. This behaviour had been clearly explained as wrong on several occasions. You may think my husband is an awful man, again your welcome. I won't waste my breath defending him, as it won't change your opinion.

I was merely suggesting that our culture may shape what we think about these thing. There are many things that other cultures do not like about UK culture. Often what we do however is write off those with opposite views straight away

Do you hit your own children? Are you happy to stand by while he hits them?

If not, why not?

It's hitting. When you 'smack' a child, you hit them.
And just because it's considered acceptable in other countries and cultures, that doesn't make it acceptable.

When I was still living in the Netherlands, there was a court case around a man from somewhere in Asia who had beaten his wife so severely she needed hospital treatment. His defence was that he had hit her in a 'culturally acceptable' way. The judge wasn't impressed and he went to jail.

FGM is also a 'cultural' tradition in many countries. We don't approve of it.

It isn't a defence of any kind.

And again, your husband didn't become a surgeon because he was hit. Lots of people who are hit don't have high flying careers and happy lives. Lots of people who weren't hit, do.

I googled ‘research into childhood of convicted criminals’. There are multiple pages of results. The first is NHS Wales (so I assume a credible source). There are at least another 10 pages to go. Even the Princess of Wales has done work in an associated area (effect of Early Years).

phw.nhs.wales/news/more-than-eight-in-ten-men-in-prison-suffered-childhood-adversity/#:~:text=“Nearly%20half%20of%20prisoners%20had,in%20populations%20outside%20of%20prison.

My husband is Chinese, smacking, not hitting, hitting is something very different. It's still very much common place, as it is in India and in many countries in the world.

My husband will attest that he was occasionally smacked, (not hit in anger) smacked for behaviour that he had been warned jn advance would result in that punishment.

Leaving the home without permission, taking money from his parents wallets to buy Pokémon cards etc..

This is a common parenting strategy in his home country, it is viewed by most Chinese people (accordingly to my husband and his friends) as an acceptable form of parenting in some situations.

He is now a successful doctor and not under the impression that his parents are abusers nor does he have a complete lack of social responsibility/respect for other people.

I think the reason I struggle with these threads is there is rarely engagement with another point of view. We can have strong opinions many do.

There's a ton of data. Google is your friend.

Have people got real data in the upbringing of prisoners ? Or is it guesswork ?

Where's the part of the body that 'doesn't cause harm'? An imaginary 6th toe? Or is it just giving the little bleeders a 'tap' on their hair? What's the point in that? Maybe just have a word? I think giving my sons a 'tap' in a place they couldn't feel it might've caused both hilarity and confusion. Best to ask them not to do things and explain why!

And that is a completely fair point well made. There should be a lot more support for people who are aware that their own parents didn't do an optimal job so that they can do things differently. My mum worked it out herself, her upbringing was very emotionally and psychologically abusive, but she didn't quite get there with the not smacking - she learned that in later life and I respect her for admitting that this wasn't the right thing to do.

I have a friend who was also brought up in a very abusive family and who referred herself to parenting support when she got pregnant. Again, huge respect for her.

The problem is when people think their upbringing was absolutely fine even though it wasn't. My late husband was brought up in a very authoritarian style and he honestly thought he had turned out fine. In fact he had chronic low self esteem and developed a lethal alcohol addiction. 95% of our arguments were about parenting and he knew full well that if he ever raised a hand to our DC, I would be out the door with them. He never admitted that his parents got things wrong. It's this lack of insight that is the problem with the 'well I was smacked and it never did me any harm' brigade.

Prison is full of people who had a 'tap' with an open palm as kids. Young offenders institutes especially so. Surely the first boundary that should be set with children is that we don't go around hitting people? What's the point of a 'tap' as described? Why wouldn't a parent say something instead? I'm a grown up. I've managed people in the workplace. I haven't gone around giving anyone an open handed 'tap' that doesn't leave a mark. I've just spoken to people calmly and respectfully. Hitting or 'tapping' anyone, let alone children, is abuse. And you know it.

I agree it is hard work and at times you do have to look at where the boundaries are and redraw them - it is vital actually as they get older to do so but I agree the pay off is definitley worth it

I'm not implying anything; my post was perfectly clear. I'm fed up of people using the euphemism "tapping" for hitting children. Just call it what it is.

You are implying that I agree with smacking. I absolutely do not. The law in England allows smacking as 'reasonable punishment' if:

• It's open-handed and not administered with a fist or implement
• It's administered on a part of the body where it won't cause harm
• It's not severe enough to leave a mark

I completely disagree with this and think England should follow the example of Wales and Scotland and ban the smacking of children completely.

Is there any statistics in England at least of what type of households or what ethnicities use smacking?

I would not expect smacks in authoritative - that's getting authoritarian

The problem with authoritative parenting is that it is much much easier if that is how you were brought up

People who are trying a different approach to how they were raised because of how it made them feel - eg a parent who was hit lots - don't have the experience to get it right, and often over compensate - violent to permissive

And then things go wrong or get difficult and they don't know what to do

It is not necessary to smack to be an authoritative parent. Not at all.

@GreyCarpet the thing with authoritative parenting is that it starts from day 1. You start by learning to intuit, anticipate and respond to your baby's needs so that they learn they will be cared for and a good attachment is formed. You talk to them from day 1, you explain what you are doing. This helps with their speech but it also helps them understand the world - even when you think the're too young.

Once they're walking and talking, you carry on like that. You're absolutely allowed to say no, but you also need to be alert and anticipate hazards. I am gobsmacked at the poster who said that electrocution and traffic dashes had happened to their child - if you're wanting to pass the driving test, you have to pass a hazard perception test and learn to anticipate. Why wouldn't you do the same in parenting?

And then you carry on. Your expectations flex as your child gets older and can handle more responsibility, but the boundaries are always clear.

The only problem with this approach? You can't sit on your phone and ignore your child, you have to engage with them. That doesn't mean 24/7 dancing attention, they have to learn to play independently and handle being bored, but it does mean being mentally there. Like I said, hard work.

The payoff is priceless.

Not this shite again. Nobody is giving "a gentle tap" as a form of punishment. They are hitting their children.

What I said was that despite the gentle parenting punishments she has tried it has made no difference, so what else does she try? she had read books on the subject and nothing works.

It's a holistic approach.

Children need to feel valued, respected and heard for 'gentler' methods to work. It needs to be consistent - chopping and changing approaches doesn't work because it creates inconsistency and uncertainty.

But the parent needs to have authority and also to be respected and trusted for the children to respond appropriately and, unfortunately, once respect, like trust, has been lost, it can be very difficult to re-establish. Authority doesn't need to be aggressive or threatening and shouldn't be something to be feared. It's more a solid belief that this person is on your side and loves and cares about you and is acting in your best interests even if feels unfair at the time. If children feel the adult is their adversary, it won't work.

Nothing will work if someone tries an approach for a few days or remembers to try it when a conflict is already underway. It takes time to establish.

Children aren't stimulus response machines. You can't just change your input method and expect to see an immediate desirable response. If her children don't respect and trust her it will be hard. They will be resistant. And if she doesn't fully understand the theory that underpins an approach, she might be saying and doing the right things in the moment but does she parent within that approach at other times too?

As someone else said, it's the hard path. But then the right path isn't always the easiest.

It's illegal to smack if you leave a mark. A gentle tap that didn't leave a mark would probably not have the impact you desire on bad behaviour. If you hit a child hard enough to cause pain, it will leave a mark and that is illegal.

I think the smacking of children should be banned in England.

Physical punishments don't work. Otherwise the prisons wouldn't be full of people who were hit and abused as children. This just teaches children that physical violence is the answer to resolving difficult situations.

As others have said, gentle parenting done properly is a type of authoritative parenting.

The best way I ever saw it explained was this.

Authoritarian parenting - strict rules and discipline. Do as I say. It's like a sheep held in a small pen. It can't move, can't turn round, can't run or express itself in anyway because the boundaries are too strict and too rigid. It can't develop decision making skills because it has no choices. It can't move.

Authoritarian parenting - rules and boundaries amd a degree of freedom to make choices within that. The sheep is in a bigger pen. It can see the fences but knows that it can move where it wants within those. It has choices.

Permissive parenting - no boundaries. The sheep has no pen. It can roam wherever it likes. The problem with that is that it can stray to far from 'home' and lose its way back. It begins to feel scared/anxious because there are no limits. It's not 'pushing boundaries' because there are none. It's trying to find them.

Gentle parenting done properly is authoritative.

There are boundaries. And they are enforced.

Eg my children had a bedtime. But that bedtime could he 'negotiated' on Friday/Saturday nights. They knew that if they got ready for bed, in pj's, brushed teeth and went to bed sensibly afterwards etc, they'd be allowed to stay up a bit later. When my son was 4, he used to sing "I'm using negotiation" when we'd compromised on something. Not everything could be compromised on (they knew what could and what couldn't) and it wasn't a free for all. They had to 'give' something in return. It certainly wasn't all their own way, but neither were arbitrary rules imposed 'because I said so'.

I never had issues around bedtime with my children. Never felt exhausted because they wouldn't go to bed, never experienced them 'pushing back' on bedtimes because they understood why it could be compromised at the weekends/school holidays but not on a school night because I explained it to them.

I've never had to 'shout' at my children because it just wasn't necessary and that was how it had been their whole lives.