Gentle Parenting has failed, lets accept this.

It certainly pissed me off way before I had kids cus I had to teach the little shits! 😂

I'm sure that there is more than one way to make a violent child.

Again, I am not in support of hitting kids, but a lot of parents are so ineffectual that kids know they can pretty much do what they want and there will be no consequence.

Anyway, that's all moot because I bow to your epic username #JazzMaverick

Many a toddler and child and adult would laugh if they did something wrong and were told "that hurts me "

sone childen respond well to that ( actually I suspect the are responding to hearing the disappointment in the voice and the disappointment triggers a fear)

Other don't care

Wait, you told another poster “wait until they are 5-8 and your mind will change!” but you don’t even have kids?!

It’s very easy to know how to be a perfect parent if you don’t have kids!

So your friends kid is awful 'because of gentle parenting'....but you acknowledge punishments like removing tech don't work anyway.

You think it's ok to smack kids

I'm assuming you're a troll

I would be having a conversation with my toddler. All they need to understand is that they have hurt someone with their actions. That is consequence enough.

This sounds really positive and it seems to be working well for you all. Much better than letting things escalate until you end up hitting due to feeling dysregulated. I bet the kids safer knowing you're in charge, too.

I think in my day I would have used time out or naughty step.. Got down to her level, explained clearly why she was being put on it, carried her to it, kicking and screaming, put her on it; if she moved, put her back on it . Never arguing but calmly saying, “you’re sitting here until you applogise for XYZ. Then I would continue to do that … even if it took over an hour … until I got an apology with feeling. You should never be scared of a 4 year old - physically or mentally - you’re the parent and the adult.
Once I’d received apology - however long it took - I would do something nice - play with her favourite toy, or hide and seek for a bit.
Then repeat if something naughty happened again.

Always prefer the nice part and was a big believer that the more play and games and interaction DC got - the more they listened to me. Not sure if this is nasty or gentle but it’s effective.

It's largely about setting a boundary/expectation and consistently sticking with it, especially with toddlers, then following through on any consequences.

Thinking of examples from when I had my own toddlers:

• throwing water in the bath/dumping it onto the floor. First off, redirection onto an acceptable version of that such as pouring water between two cups/jugs or pouring a cup of water back into the bath water. A reminder in simple language of "water stays in the bath" (or words to that effect). If it persists then a firmer reminder and a consequence of "if you keep spilling them I'll pull the plug out and bath time is over". Praise if they stop but if they don't then follow through and unplug it.

• drew on the wall. Express disappointment, "who did this?" to give an opportunity to be honest about it, let them know you know it was them. Ask if they think it was a good choice? Why do they think that? Use their answers to form the discussion (depth of which will depend on language skills). Get them to help clean it up and then no more pens/crayons for the rest of the day, they go up on the shelf out of reach, oh dear how sad.

• throw a toy? Toy goes away and doesn't come back out the rest of that day.

• hit me? I will put you down, I can't hold you when you're hitting. Wait a few seconds, remind about gentle hands (or whatever words you use) and pick back up. Repeat as needed.

• hit other children? Instant removal from the situation.

• screaming tantrum on the floor? I used to totally disengage, step slightly away but still within a range of 4-5 feet, and leave them to it. Anything I could say or do would only fuel it and tantrums were infinitely shorter without any attention fueling them. Once calm, talk about what happened (and as an adult, consider what the trigger might have been so it can be better managed next time)

• refusing to hold a hand? Reins go on. We had backpack reins and they were non-negotiable. They would have them on for leaving the house but with the parent strap tucked in and I would set the expectation of "you hold my hand/walk next to me or I hold the backpack"

With toddlers it's a fact of life that you will sometimes need to leave a location with them under your arm surfboard style or over your shoulder fireman style. I promise they grow out of it.

Gentle and permissive parenting are two completely different things. Gentle parenting assumes the developmental age of a child is ripe for corrective interventions and appropriately applies those interventions based on the maturity of their neural connections. It doesn't mean there is no cause and effect, it means that young children learn better from calm, short explanations once the dust has settled than they do from shouty punishments while they're still in fight or flight mode. It's underpinned by sound psychological, behavioural and biological scientific research.

Permissive parenting means just letting them do what they want, when they want, with no form of corrective intervention. With respect op, it doesn't sound like you understand gentle parenting.

And if your friend is applying rewards and consequences for behaviour management which don't seem to be working, then there are 3 possibilities:

She is not consistent in applying them.

Her methods are not consistent with the child's developmental age.

Her child has undiagnosed SEN.

I thought you said you "were out" OP? Evidently you're not done frothing yet about people challenging You Who Know Best.

I think you're right, let's call this out for what it is, eh? Namely you, being quite the piece of work.

Although you are absolutely entitled to have an opinion about children while not being a parent, I must confess to being quite relieved you aren't one. And I bet I'm not alone in that.

You are 100% succeeding at being the bigger person 🌺

Still in nappy’s too?

They fully acknowledged it when I was in my 30s but maintained that it was normal and what everyone else was doing at the time. I agree it was more common back then, but I certainly don't think it was universal, having talked to other people of my age about how they were parented/disciplined - also I very much believe the degree of their punishments was abnormal in using implements rather than just smacking.

There would be no use bringing it up with them again now, as they're no longer really capable of having a meaningful conversation. It is very much a case of teeth-gritting and trying to be the bigger person.

There isn't any. The research is in the opposite direction - violence begets violence. It's the same with our prison population.

I feel for some of the kids in these scenarios because it's obvious they are being let down by neglectful parents. Those kids then risk becoming the kid who doesn't have anyone attend their birthday parties or someone to sit next to them at lunch. It is sad. If a child is unpopular there is usually a reason why, kids can sense that.

My daughters are intelligent and sensitive people so it’s been easy and appropriate to be a gentle parent. I am a firm, no nonsense mum but I have always respected them and seen them as individual human beings - not just an extension of me.

People seem to fundamentally misunderstand what gentle parenting is.

Of course she is past the nappy stage now at 4 (unless ND) but perhaps there are other strategies that could work. I'm not a fan of CP generally but I think when a child is lashing out a short sharp shock of some kind is needed.

In my experience of mine and close friends and family’s kids - NONE of us hit our kids.
We did have rules and strict boundaries, we definitely shouted or had a “tone”; there were certainly punishments; naughty steps; time outs; taking gaming consoles away for weeks at a time, ordered to bed (never no supper tho!!!) and clear firm and sometimes shouty explanations as to why these things were happening.
We all also did lots of nice things - supporting them always at shows, competitions, football matches, played games, lovely picnics, days out, movie nights, cuddles and clear explanations why rules were in place.
all of them are now in their twenties - out of about 30 young adults - they are all decent, working and not in trouble with the law. Not sure if we were gentle parenting - but we were never hitting or using physical abuse.

Yes I was in school end of the 70s into the 80s and the violent kids and there was a fair few came from violent undisciplined homes.

The violent kids I remember from school were almost always the ones who were being hit by their parents. One could almost imagine that if you fail at parenting so badly that you resort to using violence to get your own way with your child, what you've just taught your child is that it's ok to use violence to get their own way with others.

Can you provide a link to the research on this?

So you are going to teach her not to be agressive..by being aggressive 👍🏻

Not for everyone it doesn’t.

why are you so cheerfully advocating the hitting of children?

What thought process do you think that very young child will go through to equate being hit, with whatever it is she's doing at that moment? Do 4 year olds understand symbolic hitting?

Will she even feel a "tap on the nappy"? If she can't feel it, what's the point? Surely the parent will need to hit harder than that to get the point across. How hard should we actually be hitting 4 year olds in order to teach them that hitting is bad? Id like to know just how much force its ok to use on a small child. I presume that talking to the child about why we've hit them would fall under gentle parenting so do we talk to them or not?