How to bring up boys

I agree with this. I have an adult ds who is amazing. Funny kind and loving.

I would add specifically though its implied in 1 and2 I feel its a point of its own

Expect of him what you expect of his sister.
So no sis helps in the kitchen ds helps dad in garden.

Teach hin to do the laundry washing up and Expect him to tidy after himself. Do not let them become " women's jobs"

Ds went to uni and returned going "mum one of the guys couldn't cook pasta"
Vegetarian dd2 had to teach a friend how to check if chicken was cooked.
Equip both children to live independently.
For me they had to be able to cook a roast dinner. As once you can organise the timing of a roast you can manage most cooking.

Also - we found primary school to be the absolute worst in terms of reinforcing regressive gender roles and teachers were sometimes as much of an issue as the influence of other parents and what the boys are like and what girls are like become self-reinforcing stereotypes. I think as dreading secondary and thought it was going to be even worse but I've been pleasantly surprised.

DS1 has a mixed group of friends for the first time in years, his male friends have a variety of hobbies (one is into knitting, cricket and Warhammer), and the discourse around "the boys" and "the girls" seems to be much less rooted in the 1960s. It may be that our primary is a massive outlier but given the discourse around what girls are like and what boys are like, somehow I doubt it.

Ok. My boys are 13 and 9 so we've not got through the teenage years yet, so take it all with a pinch of salt.

First, there's plenty of research to show that we all unconsciously socialise our kids into gender roles, to a greater or lesser extent, pretty much from the moment we know their sex. And the more people they spend time with, the stronger that association is likely to be. So to a degree it's inescapable and you have to work within the system we've got.

My boys aren't perfect. They scrap and scuffle, they wind each other up mercilessly but that's siblings.

We have never, ever accepted any "boys will be boys" bullshit. Zero tolerance, we challenged it every time from a young age. We worked hard to make sure that we had really clear boundaries in place and enforced them pretty ruthlessly.

At the same time we didn't demonise "boy things" in favour of girl things or vice versa. DS2 got a huge amount of joy from his dolls house for years - he's a storyteller and it was perfect for him. But he's also nuts about hot wheels and even now he and the Big Cool Teenager can happily spend hours in complicated car racing tournaments. DS1 is in the county basketball playoffs but he's also a shit hot baker and likes to experiment with flavours.

And I think it's important to be open and recognise that from their perspective there will be times that it feels like the odds get stacked against them. The one day a week where it's "girls only" in the MUGA at school makes perfect sense from a societal or even community-wide perspective, but if you're 7 and there's not an equivalent for boys, then it hits differently and it needs both acknowledgement and explanation while still supporting the principle.

This is something that we're encountering in a more serious way with DS1 as he gets exposed more to the "straight white men" discourse - we've had some serious chats about the nature of meritocracy, some of the structural discrimination people experience but also the shortfalls of that sort of discourse if it's applied too simplistically - particularly around how class plays into it. It's actually made more difficult because we've got a very equal household and explaining the inequalities that almost certainly exist in some of his mates' homes has been difficult for him to get his head around.

The most important thing is role modelling. It's not an accident that the kids have a father who does his share (and probably more than his share) of housework and childcare. We shared the parental leave. We both work a compressed week. We cook pretty equally. He does more of the laundry, I'm better at DIY. DS1 wants to go on an expensive school trip, he earns part of the cost through taking on additional chores.

I don't think there's a magic formula and I'm dreading the next ten years, especially as DS2 is a much trickier character than DS1. But so far openness, talking and having clear standards has worked for us.

I'm going to be honest that this thread has really upset me. My parents saw the difference between a boy and girl just as you did - boy violent bully, girl calm & therefore normal - and never saw anything wrong with it. They got it so wrong and they destroyed my brother. Those labels messed him up and they viewed him as a violent bully too and always patented him that way simply because they completely didn't understand the difference between boys and girls.

As an adult he's a mess and I never got the lovely adult relationship with him I could have had with him and I've had to see that effect on him and it's horrific.

You sound exactly like them (OP not post I've quoted here, which I agree with).

They tried it on with my son at the same age when he was little too - it was very nasty - same words - violent, aggressive malicious - etc. We are low contact with them now because of it. My son has consistently got good behaviour records and comments at home and school, and is usually chosen to show new kids (boys & girls) around at school because he's so kind.

Don't want you to feel I'm getting at you OP but I don't want to see this happen again to another kid!!

In my opinion your male toddler feels safe enough to let off steam when he's with you. At his age he needs to be doing lots to engage his core and will have surges of testosterone that he needs active play which can look quite aggressive.
He's not being aggressive to other children etc at nursery because it's not his safe place with his main care giver - you.
Channeling his energy into sports and learning opportunities to control his frustration such as within a structured activity will be great as he ages.
But the concern that he might turn into a nasty person lies with his environment in my opinion. If the people he love are showing him it's okay to behave negatively towards people because they are different and more vulnerable, he will do the same.

My sons are 38 and 39 and have never been selfish nor violent and have respect for those around them.
They copy what is around them as children, so show him respect and have respect for others.
It's only a small amount of men that act the way you seem to think that men are naturally like. I bet they all had rotten dads and selfish mothers.

It's an interesting one because when I look around at my male friends (and DP) who are good men, there isn't a common thread in how they were brought up. I have a friend who was raised in the most traditional, rigid family when it came to gender roles - he disliked it so much that he swore to go the opposite way as an adult. And then I have male friends whose respect for women and non-aggressive attitudes obviously derive from being brought up in progressive households where that was just the norm.

My working theory (purely anecdotal but a couple of aforementioned male friends agree) is that mixed-gender socialising as teenagers is crucial. I think boys who don't hang out with girls during the period where they're starting to be intensely attracted to them can develop some very strange ideas, which at root are about seeing girls as "the other". Boys and girls who are friends tend to see each other as "on the same side" when it comes to navigating adolescence, growing up, finding their way in the world, rather than on opposite sides.

Relatedly, a man who has female friends is always, always a green flag when dating.

Mixed-gender socialising tends to come from mixed-gender hobbies. For me, that was anything artistic. Music, reading, photography etc aren't really gendered activities. Somewhat surprised to see sport mentioned so much - the benefits of the exercise are crucial of course, but all-male sports teams are an absolute hotbed of misogyny. Locker room talk and all that.

I think it also helps if you don't think men are inherently prone to violence, and if you don't think the male sex drive is inherently disgusting.

Get a new nursery. Stop perpetuating this myth that boys are boisterous and violent. There have been many studies that prove that we put these traits on children depending on which sex we perceive them to be. Our nursery certainly doesn’t adhere to this outdated thinking, find somewhere that doesn’t label your child because of their sex.

My DSs are young adults now. I think OP is overthinking the whole thing. To be facetious I treated my boys like Labradors ie ensured they were well fed, very well exercised and had plenty of sleep. We spent time with them. I didn’t tolerate any violence but boisterous play was usually ok.

They had good role models. We talk about sexism, equality etc. Why Andrew Tate is appalling. Etc etc.

And they are wonderful young men. And that’s not just my view.

I think you’re wrong there, many men don’t show their abusive sides until after children come along.

I'm not comparing him to abusive men but to his sister and the nursery staff I assume speak based on their experience of boys and girls at that age.

I suspect you're already on a risky path tbh OP. The way you talk about your son, comparing him to your daughter, using the term bully...if we can see that in this thread, I can only imagine how that'll present at home. And that'll lead to resentment. I'd be very careful to presume too much about him based on his sex, and instead parent him based on the person he is.

Society will only become better when both boys and girls will start being raised to become good human beings rather than define by their sex.

It sounds like you want to raise your boys to believe that he is the lesser sex and therefore needing extra care so that he can grow to act more like the better sex.

Talk about getting him to grow wishing he was female or feeling guilty to be a boy.

Both men and women are abusive in their own ways. Women's way might be more subtle, but they also can do much damage.

Teach your children the same values and to embrace who they really are. Both will likely need to learn to adjust some aspects of their personality to become better people as we all do. Teach them self-reflection for a start and they will becom 'normal' adults.

There is something in what the op is asking though, isn’t there?

There must be something that could be done differently regarding parenting boys that could ultimately go on to change the statistics for male violence against each other, against women?

Yes but suggesting they need therapy for saying their 3 yo son is prone to violent outbursts is crazy.

Was thinking exactly the same!

I think you misunderstood my POV. I'm completely against the OPs thoughts !!!!!!!!

Raising two boys over here and some things I think have helped so far for us:

Zero tolerance for violence (hitting, kicking, pushing) or meanness (including verbal) of any kind. Doesn't matter if it's in jest or they're trying to be funny, they know it's absolutely not okay in our family and the rare times it comes up now they're older (6 & 8), there is a clear and fair consequence.

Reinforcing that it's okay to cry, always, if you're sad. Making sure they know that all feelings are okay, but that they are responsible for how they communicate those feelings. If they need help with that, it's always okay to ask.

Conversations from early on about consent and rights over your own body (and others over theirs) - no means no, and if anyone says "no" or "stop" during play or in general, you have to stop whatever you were doing immediately, no questions asked.

Mostly though, I think it's just modeling kindness. Looking for ways to make people's days better, even if they're total strangers. Lots of hugs, grace and compassion. Patience. Seeing the best in them and the world around you (as far as is possible at the moment, haha) and really encouraging kindness.

You've already referred to him as a bully and violent and he's only 3. You need to stop with these nasty, awful labels to begin with.

Also - what we do with my son (who is a teen and a lovely boy) - he has a smartphone years later than his friends and played video games about 5 years later than his friends and there are still games that he isn't allowed (shoot em up type things). Who knows if it made a difference but we always feel it did.

Then lots of outside time, speaking respectfully about women, helping him build his self confidence, all the usual stuff like that.

Same, but i would bring boys and girls if I had any the same, being girls up to not be responsible for their actions and can act how ever they want 'because boys are worse' is not healthy nor treating a boy as an enemy as soon as they are born

Both girls and boys can learn how to grown responsible adults who treat others as they want to be treated and not go on to breed the next generation of dysfunctional future grown ups, and go from one terrible relationship to the next

Toxic masculinity seems to come with low self esteem, loneliness and insecurity. So encourage him to get involved in fun, positive hobbies that attract a decent crowd. Praise him, listen to him and make sure he knows he’s loved.

There isn’t much you can do about testosterone, so I wouldn’t over think that one. It is probably to blame for quite a lot of male aggression though.

Oh FGS, I have a nearly 21 year old son. He was an impulsive toddler who hit and bit. I don't hate men, neither is my husband his father violent.He is now absolutely charming, kind, clever and funny. He is away at University and absolutely thriving.

Boys need plently of time outside running around the average nursery/ school day was no where near physical enough for DS, the WHO recommendeds 2- 3 hours of physical play for a toddler and would suggest for DS that was the bare minimum. We walked everywhere, I always had a ball in the bottom of the buggy/ in the car boot. Lots of bike rides, organised sport 3 evenings after school, swimming at the weekend.

Clear bounderies, boys respond very well to a hierarchical structure, they need rules and consequences for stepping outside those rules , screen time is earnt. As DS got older if he played up bedtime came back 10 minutes as I argued he must be tired to be behaving like that.

Of course regular food behaviour always goes off if people are hungry. It sometimes felt like being in the army, I was envious of houses where things were free, easier and more relaxed- but my DS just didn't do well in those environments he needed structure and activity.

Yeah, this is pretty much it. All psychological traits are heritable, and then the environmental effect are amplified by undesirable male behaviour.

Aside from this, boundaries. I've got friends who I have literally never heard them tell their male children "no". If they grow up thinking that boundaries are just arbitrary things they can ignore as long as they want something strongly enough, then it's no wonder there are so many problematic men.

That's the biggest load of shit I've ever heard.

I wouldn't overthink it.

You bring your children up on a day to day basis guiding them as to what's right and wrong and this becomes part of that.

Children generally also pick up on the views
and morals of their family.

I find that, even when doing simple things such as watching TV, I often comment on things that aren't appropriate, and this can lead to other conversations.

You'll get there!

This. I agree, this really bothers me and is very red flag of OP