Wtf is wrong with people when it comes to hidden disabilities?

I haven't seen the thread about hair pulling, but worth pointing out that there's no rule saying only one person in any given situation can be ND/have a hidden disability. My ND child couldn't be relied on to show much understanding if that had happened to them, regardless of the level of culpability of the aggressor.

I am not aware of any case in England where this has happened.
The person can be charged with other offences, and this may be wrongly described by the press as a murder charge. Usually causing an illegal abortion.

Criminal Law and The Life of the Unborn Child - MPR Solicitors secure acquittal of father charged with assault to procure a miscarriage - MPR Solicitors LLP

I think some carers are a bit wishy washy at times. There was a thread yesterday about a man pulling a young girl’s hair. His carer appeared minutes later and got him to eventually let go, so it was her fault. She should be there immediately to keep him and other people safe.

One day he might pull someone’s hair, and he’ll get punched to the ground by a very NT person who knows exactly what they are doing. The irony.

I read that thread about the girl getting her hair pulled, the carers were in the wrong. They should have been watching him better.
You can't blame people for reacting to being assaulted though, and like you said many disabilities are hidden.
How are we supposed to decide on the spot if the person pulling our hair is disabled to the point they don't know right from wrong.
I was shopping at a Primark Store a few months ago and a boy who looked around 19/20 grabbed a woman's breast, she started screaming, two carers who were at the other end of the shop run over and tried to explain that he was autistic and it's just a "thing he does" The woman phoned the police and he was arrested, the carers phoned the boys mum who turned up and went to the police station with him.
No idea if he was actually charged but again this was the fault of the carers.
He should never have been put in a situation where he could behave like this, but the woman has the right to go shopping without being groped.

Sorry but there is a certain level of behaviour that should be expected of everyone. Violence is never acceptable. If the person doesn't have capacity then they should be kept away from the general public.

Same for behaviour in schools. If a child has SEND or behavioural issues and are disruptive then the classroom isn't the place for them. The needs of one child isn't greater than all the other students.

What are you suggesting? That neurodiverse people have brain damage?

Violence isn’t acceptable regardless of cause. I would call the police if assaulted by someone with a disability as they are clearly a risk and need better supervision. The court diversion process would likely be used to ensure input from services.

Exactly, people react in the moment. None of us can say how we would react in that situation until we're in it. People who said they would punch the person or scream and shout might just freeze and do nothing.

There's a difference between having no sympathy, understanding or compassion for the person with ND or a hidden disability and wanting to protect yourself and your children.

My nephew is autistic. For years, my sister was in complete denial about it. While he still a pre-schooler I met up with her regularly for playdates as my son was the same age. Her son would constantly hit, kick, punch and "scrunch" my son (y'know, that sort of grabby, scratchy, pinchy thing kids do with both hands) he had bruises, and he drew blood on more than one occasion. This was my 3 year old, my baby. What was I supposed to do? I had to protect him? So I told my sister we can't meet up with her anymore because all I was doing was putting my son into a situation where I knew he was going to get hurt. She was very upset and felt it was just isolating her son as she didn't know many other mums and was finding it hard to make friends.
At my house, he would have huge tantrums and pick things up and throw them. A precious ornament we were giving as a wedding present was broken, and he tore the beading off our back door which we had to pay to have replaced.
He also used to wet himself constantly. She refused to put him in any sort of pull up or nappy, just dressed him in light trousers so she could see when he was wet, and carried spare clothes with her. But this meant that I was having to sniff out where about he had pissed in my house, scrubbing my sofa or carpet, or the soft play staff would have to clear it up, and other kids had been stepping in it before she's noticed it.

I'm a caring person, I am, and I supported my sister to the best of my ability, but I'm human. Its very difficult to see your child getting hurt or your things being ruined and nothing seemingly being done about it. Like the PP that said an adult man slapped her two year old across the face and all that was there were two carers, who were unable to stop him. People are going to react with anger or frustration, no normal person is going to say "oh my baby just got attacked by a person with 10 times her strength and is creaming in pain, what a pity,.but I guess I should show total compassion for this huge hulk of a man and not react in any way that might seem discriminatory"

I think perhaps OP, you need to try and see things beyond your own experiences.

What about in cases where a pregnant woman has been killed and the murderer gets sentenced to two murders? Her and the unborn baby.

Is this about the thread where 17 year old's hair was pulled by a fully adult man not once, but twice? And that's fine, because poor lamb has 'a hidden disability'?

Nah, fuck that.

I've been in a similar situation as a child and as an adult. When I was about 6, I was playing outside and was cornered by a man who lived in the neighborhood. He (and his family) were known around, mute (couldn't speak, but could do sounds, shouting, booing, hissing, etc), deaf and clearly with some learning disabilities.

He was maybe 19, maybe a bit older, me - 6. He cornered me and started sort of grabbing/pawing/groping me all over, making weird sounds at the same time. It was terrifying and I screamed at the top of my lungs. My dad heard and ran outside to me. He saw an adult man gropping his small child daughter, grabbed him and punched him to the ground, knocking him out. He knew he had 'disabilities' and didn't care. And thank fuck for that.

I was in a similar situation with my own DD and reacted exactly the same as my dad, as my response to shock is to fight.

Judging my MN, everyone and their dog is now autistic, ND, ADHD, dyslexic, dyspraxic, has anxiety and the list continues. Look, I DON'T GIVE A FUCK. Control your kid so he won't touch mine. If you can't - I will. And if an adult 'issues' man isn't able to keep his hands to himself - he shouldn't be among the general population.

Nowadays there's so many people with so many 'rights'. I refuse to respect your rights if they infringe upon mine. Why should your son and his wellbeing be more valuable to me than my family's and my own? Ridiculous.

If over the 28th week of pregnancy the offence would be ‘child destruction’

Totally agree.
People talk about hidden disabilities all the time on here. What they really mean is neurodiversity in their children. Most of the time this is at the milder end and so they grow up into adults who get married, have jobs and their own children. And they ignore that some children with disabilities grow up into adults with disabilities.

But your 4ft8 80yo frail grandmother didn’t pose a real danger to your 6ft husband in the same way the 20yo man posed to the 17yo girl in the thread you mentioned. Also, the OP’s example of a toddler pulling an adult’s hair is not the same.

It’s unfortunate that the young man was put in a situation where he reacted by pulling someone’s hair (twice!!!). But if the girl or her parents had reacted by pushing him or screaming I wouldn’t have blamed them.

I must admit I haven't seen that much of what you describe, and only occasionally, on Munsnet, but often people do seem to type on here 'in the moment'. Later on when feeling less disturbed they may think differently. It's a way of getting their irritation out in a neutral environment and doesn't affect the person who may have irritated or disturbed them.

Please don't take it so personally, I do understand how you feel but it's not meant, most people are kind but don't always understand.

Mumsnet is inherently ableist, yes. However, no matter what the disability, physical assault is not OK.

I have long hair in a pony tail. I also have a severe spinal injury. I don't go out much because of the pain and risk to my spine. I shouldn't have to stay locked away in case someone bumps my car, walks into me in a supermarket or jostles me in a queue, but I do.

If someone grabbed and pulled on my ponytail, they'd literally kill me. That may not be the fault of the person who did it, but I can guarantee that my family would hold them responsible, as would the law.

If someone is liable to attack other people, they should be with someone who can prevent this from happening, or they should not be in a situation where they can carry this out. If that means not going to a small café, then so be it. I have to stay out of situations that might put me at risk, so the same should apply to other disabled people. No one should be assaulted by anyone.

People saying the public have a right not to be assaulted are of course, completely correct and yes you should be allowed to defend yourself. What throws me about this discussion is the seeming lack of nuance or proportionality in our response. Now this may be because people are responding simply with headline point because its an online discussion forum and it doesnt represent their full view but it is a little alarming.

No one should ever be hit by anyone but if a small child/ toddler hits you, you physically stop them, remove them from the situation and put in age appropriate consequences. If a 90 year old lady with dementia hits you, she is likely lashing out from fear so you remove yourself or restrain her but de-escalate the situation. If a NT person on the street hits you, you have the right to defend yourself as necessary I think this includes hitting back if needed (personally I'd run because I'm a weakling). We all get the difference right?

In terms of the hair pulling, none of us where there so cannot know the level of intent, understanding etc. However, if we accept that it was clear there was some level of learning disability then no punching him in the face while shrieking is not a normal and proportional response. The carer should have stepped in but as they didn't the man should have been made to let go, physically if required but not by being beaten up, the girl removed and the situation de-escalated.

My toddler went through a hair yanking stage. He was entranced by it, there was no malicious intent, he wasn't trying to hurt but there was a lack of understanding and empathy. I, as the adult, have that understanding and empathy so yes I immediately stop it but don't physically hurt him back.

Maybe you should be looking into why there are so many people with ‘hidden disabilities’ these days?? It’s like a pandemic. Did they put something in the water?! Maybe some people are tired of the fact that normal people have to walk on egg shells these days because every second person has a disability, is ND etc etc and the list goes on. Everything we say and do is wrong and you can have a rant but we can’t…

Perhaps those that feel that way think these individuals should be incarcerated in mental asylums the way they were 200 years ago?

Secure mental hospitals are the inevitable consequence of simply accepting a person with ‘hidden disabilities’ cannot avoid assaulting people. It is either that or prison. I find it very ableist to suggest that autistic people are violent and unable to stop themselves assaulting other - the vast majority are perfectly capable of learning not to (albeit often at an older age than other children).

No it would not legally be murder ever. Until a baby is born, it is not legally a person. If it was, all abortion would legally be murder.

Of course someone with no legal capacity is not going to be prosecuted. They may be incarcerated in a psychiatric hospital, but they will not face trial and prison. Someone legally has to be criminally responsible to do so.

@ClosetBasketCase so when the lady with dementia stares at you in a cafe who do you report her to? And what do you think should be done about it?

Ime it's those with disabilities that get a) most abuse and b) stared at the most, so I'm not really sure that nt people are the real victims here.

On the rare occasions my 18 leaves the house we get stared at where ever we go - he is over 6 ft so this makes him uncomfortable, some people smirk - he won't make eye contact but he can see what you are doing & the judgement that flicks across your face in that nano second
So he lets go but then he can't cope he will start to stim, so you stare some more - there are a few more smirks & some outright laughs & then limbs start flying & things are grabbed but according to lots of people he is at fault - you have missed then chain of events & the fact that the NT person started that chain
This is just an example, a snap shot of one instance in one of days of the last 18 years - give us a break 💔