To be angry that the NHS doesn’t take pain seriously?

It is not just woman's pain they ignore, although I have to agree that the female doctors that I have dealt with over the years are more dismissive, and some are just plain nasty than the male ones. My husband was going to the doctor for hip and back pain for ages and his doctor kept telling him he had a sports injury. I went with him one time and told the doctor he doesn't play sports and asked how he could get an injury sitting on his arse? I set up an appointment with my GP (he is fab) and he took one look at how my husband walked into the room asked him to go out and come back in. Then said he needed to do blood work. We then got a diagnosis a horrible genetic one but my husband would be in a lot worse condition if we had stayed with his doctor.

I'm afraid I have to agree with you Op. I'm glad you're getting some help now, but it is very frustrating. Worse than that. I've been referred to a pain clinic twice which I can say is just window dressing to be honest. They did sod all for me. Ive had hip, pelvic and coccyx pain for 16 years. At times I haven't been able to walk. But saying this to a GP doesn't seem to matter.

I think there’s something in this. My DH sent in an e-consult a few months ago when he had a (mild but persistent) cough. No red flag symptoms at all. He was given a next day appointment. (I can only think it must have been a quiet week.)

I requested an appointment for lump in throat, persistent sore throat symptoms - lots of symptoms consistent with throat cancer (thankfully it wasn’t). 3 weeks.

Oh give over with this men and women nonsense. I know plenty of men who have battled to get any help too. You know one man so don't generalise. I think it's per area. Our area the GP is very good actually and 9/10 times they will give you a same day appointment and will always give a child a same day appointment. Referrals are done and appointments given quickly too. I really think it's the area

It’s also well documented that women have to seek medical help 3-4 times when men only go once, reporting exactly the same symptoms.

All medical systems have staff who have bias and who make wrong judgements.

In terms of pain, it is subjective. I have back pain, many people do as they get older. 95% of people over 50 have degeneration in their back, often their discs. We get old. I do my physio and take painkillers as needed.

But I also know someone who tells me they have terrible constant back pain. And yet to look at her movements that does not appear to be the case. I believe she has pain, I do not believe it as bad as she says it is. I have met her and her partner for lunch, and then I have literally seen her skip down the road afterwards when we part. Meanwhile it is common even amongst very fit friends to see them get up stiffly and groan a bit after sitting down for a meal for a few hours.

It is because pain is subjective that Drs judge what patients tell them. And when people do that, bias comes into play.

I think you're not understanding my original point (perhaps because I haven't worded it well) in a nutshell OP wants to know 'are women taken less seriously ?" My response is "yes" and I theorised one example of why.

I'm not suggesting or getting into how other conditions are treated/ how painkillers are used. I mentioned a line on it to back up my theory. But I accept my post could have been worded more clearly.

@HateLongCovid I'll keep this brief.

Research tells us crudely that the typical person diagnosed with fibromyalgia (I'll use this example as someone mentioned it up thread) is a middle aged woman, with concomitant mental health conditions, without further education. Furthermore, their symptoms overlap with other such illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome.

There will always be exceptions to this. But research tells us that is your "typical" demographic. You may look this up. It's not my findings.

Does this mean that those women are making their symptoms up? No.

Does this mean that their symptoms aren't real? No.

What do I interpret this to mean seeing as you asked in an accusatory way ?

I interpret this to mean that for the medical profession it is a nice comfortable diagnosis of elimination to give those women. It's a physical diagnosis. Most people with mental health problems, feel more comfortable (for many different reasons ) with a 'physical' label. It's validating - the medical profession realise this. I think I'd feel more validated by a physical diagnosis. There's still stigma attached to mental health diagnoses.

But are we failing those individuals by not exploring or treating, for example a possible case of depression?

Depression is serious and takes lives. It deserves respect and treatment.

It's much harder to treat mental illness. Patients often (understandably) don't like that label. So it's a win/win to apply a physical syndrome. Because illnesses like fibromyalgia as an example, are syndromes. That's factual.

You've decided I've said certain conditions aren't "real". I have never said that. Have a read of what I have actually said and see how that applies to the OPs original questions and thoughts.

I had to fight as a teenager for them to take my pain seriously. My periods were hell, heavy bleeding and utter agony on the first day. Painkillers didn’t work as the pain made me throw up and brought up the painkillers. My exams were hell as I started on the day of one and fainted in the exam hall.

My mum took me to the doctor again and the prescribed Ponstan, which I threw up half dissolved. The GP then shrugged and said ‘what do you want me to do?’ My mum said ‘your bloody job, you have a teenager who is suicidal over pain and pmt and as far as I can see you don’t give a crap. She has exams this year!’ He the reluctantly prescribed the pill as they ‘don’t like to prescribe it long term’ I was 15. Omg it was life changing, very little pain, light bleeding, didn’t need to have a period if I didn’t want it…I got my life back. If they’d just done that 6 months previously it would have been so much better.

I was told by a Dr, after an X-ray on my hip, that I had mild to moderate arthritis. He made me feel like a nuisance, and tbh, I became quite depressed.

When the pain was so excruciating that I couldn’t walk, I was referred to the physio. He looked at the same X-ray and told me that I needed a hip replacement because my hip joint was bone on bone.

When my other hip started to go, I was much more assertive!

The NHS sadly can’t be relied on now
People have to push hard for referrals scans etc and not be fobbed off
Failing which go private ( which I never thought I would say )

I’ve been disabled and in pain my entire life. As a child, they done everything to get me out of pain. I’d often be admitted just to get the pain under control. They seemed to care about doing everything in their power to ensure I wasn’t struggling.

now as an adult, I go to my appointments and they say ‘you’re on the right medication there’s not much else we can do’. I’m basically told to get on with it and I’m in tears getting out of bed, I’m in tears by the end of the day due to the pain. I only leave my home for medical appointments and to do the school run as I physically am incapable of doing anything else due to the pain. I have a 5 year old that I can do nothing with. I can’t concentrated, I can’t think straight. There’s definitely a correlation between constant pain and mental health issues as I’ve been depressed my entire life because of it.

I try to communicate to my doctors my life struggles and that I have never had a day in my entire life where I haven’t not felt pain and no one takes me seriously and expects me to just get on with it. It’s horrendous and debilitating- I’m only 28 and I cannot think what the rest of my life will be like.

OP I hope it gets better for you, I guess I’m rambling just to rant but also to say you’re not alone. I’m so sorry you have been treated the way you have and I hope you continue telling your story to raise awareness! stay strong, sending love to you x

NHS GPs were crap 25 years ago! It's nothing recent. Blair lauded his "New" GP contract over 20 years ago to "cure" the GP problem. So there was clearly a problem back then. Trouble is that paying them more to do less didn;t "cure" the problem - it made the problem worse as they all just reduced their working hours! I'd love to believe Streeting's new contract will be a change for the better, but I'm not holding my breath.

I would have lied and said pain is worse since I fell off a stepladder whilst decorating.
maybe because I worked in the nhs and they are ordinary people and can make mistakes.

I have had back pain since I fell off a horse when I was 13, in 2001. I have a family history of serious back problems - an uncle with ankylosing spondylitis, an aunt who has had multiple surgeries for spinal issues, a mother who has serious spinal arthritis and has had surgery for a disc issue and a father with scoliosis.

I was diagnosed with a slipped disc in my mid 20s and psoriatic arthritis in my early 30s, which is known to affect the spine. I have spent decades seeing doctors about my back pain and am now nearly 37. I have not once been offered an xray or scan of my back, despite the family history and my symptoms. Apparently I have too much movement in my spine. Well, yes, I also have EDS - I have too much movement in my finger joints too but they scanned those and found they were affected by PsA.

My husband has also had back pain for a few years now, starting in his late 20s/early 30s. He too has a PsA diagnosis and in his case, no family history of spinal issues. He's had all manner of scans of his spine!

Nail on the head. It's a national disgrace, not something to be proud of. And, no, it's not just recent. It's been crap for 20-30 years. It's only good if they know easily what's wrong with you and there's an easy treatment. Anything they can't readily diagnose and treat, they just fob you off as it's too hard for them, so they hope that another medic will work it out and send you on your way or leave you languishing in a hospital bed until a different doctor comes on shift.

Read the book "Whistle in the Wind" by consultant Peter Duffy - it highlights how NHS managers cover up laziness and incompetence.

The NHS killed my father in law back in the noughties. A very fit man, never been anything wrong with him. Literally week after week of languishing in a hospital bed, getting more and more ill, as successive doctors swanned in, glibly ordered another test (many already done previously) to make it look like they were doing something, then beggared off, leaving it to "someone else" to work out the problem another day. They finally twigged he had a bowel blockage (all the symptoms were pointing to it when you google it), but by the time they realised, it was too late and he was too weak.

Just had it again with MIL. Clearly had a severe chest infection. GPs wouldn't do a damn thing despite 3 appointments during December. Wouldn't issue antibiotics, wouldn't refer for a chest x-ray. She was just getting worse and worse and all the 3 different GPs would say was to buy her some cough medicine! We took her to A&E on New Years Eve and they immediately diagnosed severe pneumonia, both lungs, but she was languishing on a trolley for two whole days - 48 hours, before they found her a ward bed and started antibiotics. She died the day after.

Had it a decade ago with my OH. He'd literally never been to the GPs for decades, not at all since we'd been married 30 years. He started getting lots of different problems - lots of severe bruising for no reason, severe rib pains, fainting, severe headaches, severe bone/joint pains. He must have been going to the GPs every month or two to try to get them to take it seriously and diagnose what was wrong with him as it was really affecting his life. A succession of GPs just basically patted him on the head, told him it was all just what happens as you get older, and did the usual GP fobbing off. It was only when he had really bad rib pain for no reason and his chest was literally black with bruising that a GP took him seriously and ordered an x-ray. Turned out he had just broken 3 of his ribs - for no reason, he'd not fallen or had any kind of accident. The GP finally ordered some blood tests, but they came back normal. So, of course, usual "fob off" by telling him just to take it easy and they'd heal themselves and that "he must have fallen or knocked them and forgotten!". They obviously healed after a couple of months, but then it happened again on different ribs. This time, it was a locum GP who actually listened to him and spent a bit of time looking back on the notes and ordered a different blood test, but she wouldn't say what she was looking for. A couple of days after the blood test, she phoned him and told him he had an appointment with oncology a couple of days later. It was bone marrow cancer! Again, when you google the symptoms, it was a classic case, yet a succession of GPs over 2-3 years had completely missed the bloody obvious.

So, no, I won't be banging pans or lauding the NHS. It's a national disgrace.

Yup

I have anxiety and fibromyalgia.

Not a heart condition since birth, that's been ignored every time I mentioned symptoms until a junior doctor in A+E noticed it on an ECG.

Not lichen sclerosis, despite being biopsied and diagnosed as a young child, no treatment given, not told, biopsied again when older, finally given steroids, but significant changes and very frequent pain. And then found it my notes I'd been diagnosed 25 years before.

Not rheumatoid arthritis, another auto immune condition.

Not ovarian cysts

Nope, just anxiety, fibro and drug seeking behaviour.

I finally have a nicer GP who does listen on the rare occasions I go. But I'm so disillusioned that I rarely do.

I’m a woman. I’ve had lots of illnesses over the years - some sex specific. I’ve had 2 babies and fertility issues. The only time I felt that I was being treated badly as a woman by a medical person was when I had to have a medical for a CS job and the ‘doctor’ told me to strip off to my pants. I didn’t realise that wasn’t necessary!
Every other NHS worker (male and female) has treated me with courtesy, kindness and understanding. I have never felt dismissed or ignored.

Sorry but have to disagree about the men comment. Took 10 years for DH to be diagnosed with ankalosing spondylitis. He only got a diagnosis through private healthcare. He was in A&E for 12 hours and developed sepsis before being diagnosed with gallstones and 14 months to see a hepatologist as he had developed primary sclerosing cholangitis as a result. He probably wont work again.Tbh some problems cannot really be solved and surgery can be dangerous and not particularly effective. I think it is an age thing though
I seem to be sent for tests and referrals more readily now I'm 60. I suppose it's all about statistics and risk. There are limited resources as ever I suppose. It's causing unnecessary pain and disability though. I'd recommend going private if anyone can afford it. It cost DH £25k to have his gallbladder removed and to go through 4 ERCPs as he was so ill with a liver blocked with gallstone sludge. I work in z carehome and barely a day goes by without an ambulance being called and residents often get CTs, xrays and MRIs after falls. Most have dementia and are in their 90s.

I’m not sure I understand why an earlier diagnosis of spinal stenosis would have changed anything apart from you having the knowledge of the cause of pain. You would still have had all the symptoms you describe wouldn’t you?
What treatment are you having for the Cauda Equina?

I agree. I have been in chronic pain for years. At the age of 19 I had a serious accident and smashed my body up- so it's reasonable to expect there will be ongoing problems. I kept going back to the GP to be told 'lose weight'. (Told this even though I had a BMI of 23. ) Finally with a sigh and a tut and eye roll the GP sent me to the muscular guy at the surgery and i was told to lose weight again and I was too young to have anything like arthritis. (I am 52). Finally DH got fed up and arranged for a private MRI- I have arthritis in both hips, bursitis and two bulging discs in my spine.

That is only one story I have. I also have a child who has a long list of health problems. We kept going back to the GP to just be dismissed. Turns out he DOES have asthma (took an asthma attack and admission to hospital before they took me seriously about his wheezing). He DOES have a rare allergy to the cold (told such a thing is very rare so he couldn't possibly have it- took an A&E trip with anaphylaxis after swimming in the sea - it's called cold urticaria and 'rare' does not mean 'impossible' and I have been told that I am a very 'protective' mother on forms which I interpret that they mean as a negative.

Then NHS is not a bloody sacred cow and their failures ought to be called to account. In my experience I feel that patients are treated as a nuisance. That said, I was in A&E myself at the weekend following an asthma attack and I was treated with courtesy and respect. Personally I find that locums and HCP from abroad are alot more attentive of issues than my regular now obviously jaded GP and Ds's various consultants.

I don't think men's bodies are less complex. It's just for years (and clearly this still persists) men were the default and women were considered a smaller, defective man, and women's bodies were not studied or discussed in any great separate detail. Across the board, not just in medicine.

I think men’s bodies are less complex. It’s a bit more ‘what you see, you get’. Their bodies work until they are broken, so then they get fixed.

Ours fluctuate. We are injury prone at specific times of the month, have cramps as a design feature not a failure, and so on. Our hormonal cycle can get out of whack and then winds down in midlife with various associated unpleasant experiences.

And pregnancy and birth is not ideal for bodies. Pelvic floor dysfunction, softening joints, and birth injuries.

Plus after a lifetime of this shit, we are prone to chronic pain in reaction to it, I reckon. Body is so used to feeling below par it becomes the new normal.

One of the most annoying moments for me, with hindsight, was being told I wasn’t perimenopausal because I wasn’t having hot flushes. Ten years later we seem to know better.

@Halloumiheaven where your first post falls down, for me, is that middle aged women’s chronic pain issues aren’t treated with painkillers as they aren’t responsive to pain killers. It tends to be nerve pain treatments, which are low dose antidepressants I think.