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To HATE the phrase "lived experience"?

557 replies

ThisFluentBiscuit · 03/03/2025 06:36

Pet peeve incoming:

By definition, experience is lived! You can hardly have an experience without living it, fgs! And what's the opposite of lived experience? An experience that you've had, yet haven't lived? It's complete nonsense. It's used to sound falsely clever when an argument is weak, like "In my personal experience." Well, of course your experience is personal! You would hardly say, "In my neighbour's experience, I find Florida too cold in December."

And it's officially wrong, because it's a tautology. Like "top-floor penthouse."

I don't know whether it's the innate stupidity of the phrase or the fact that it's a linguistic fad that annoys me the most.

"stamps off"

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ThisFluentBiscuit · 03/03/2025 12:12

The Spectator on the phrase:

A brief history of 'lived experience' | The Spectator

"All experiences are lived, of course, but it seems some experiences are more ‘lived’ than others. Truth has become a moveable feast. This may seem like a contradiction. But this is where we find ourselves.

How you define the notion of truthfulness is yet another signifier of where you stand in the increasingly wearisome culture war. Whether you see the subjectivity of lived experience as a progressive force for good or just another postmodern mash-up will depend on your age and political persuasion.
Those who view experience through the lens of victimhood – mostly the activist young – tend to see objectivity as a tool of oppression. In an article on the Everyday Feminism website entitled 4 Reasons Demanding ‘Objectivity’ in Social Justice Debates Can Be Oppressive, the author even goes so far as to assert that: ‘Objectivity is often a sign of privilege and distance, not expertise.’ Those interested in the facts are simply trying to undermine the voice of the victim and their right to be heard. Your concern with the facts cannot trump my experience of ‘truth’ – or so the logic goes. As such, the truth becomes little more than interpretation.

"‘Lived experience’, however traumatic, has been touted as a form of career currency to put on your CV – just as you would a degree.

"For those who have yet to pass through this strange looking glass, the denial of empirical evidence as a foundation of truth telling can feel deeply demoralising and quite frightening, especially when any ‘victim’ can speak their ‘truth’ with all manner of consequences for those who are implicated in it. Abandon objective truth and what’s left other than a lot of shouting into the void? The consequences for civil society are immense. When vice-president Kamala Harris revealed that she had promised Joe Biden that she would always share with him her ‘lived experience, as it relates to any issue that we confront’, the implication was that her truth should override any inconvenient reality. Chilling doesn’t even come close.

"So how did we arrive at the belief that the subjective experience of certain people exists in a realm that is beyond doubt?

"The term ‘lived experience’, translated from the German Erlebnis, can be traced back to The Second Sex by the French existentialist Simone de Beauvoir, a seminal work of second-wave feminism. De Beauvoir argued that in order to answer the question ‘what is a woman?’ one had to dig much deeper than mere biological characteristics. Women were constrained by patriarchal social structures that were hard to quantify in purely objective terms. As the ‘consciousness-raising’ 1969 feminist Redstocking Manifesto put it: ‘We regard our personal experiences and feelings about experience as the basis for an analysis of our common situation … Our chief task is to develop female class consciousness through sharing experience and publicly exposing the sexist foundation of all our situations.’
The term, then, is rooted in feminist scholarship, which is why it has become such a talking point around issues of male violence. The murder of Sarah Everard caused understandable outrage but it was remarkable how quickly women’s anger shifted away from the actual perpetrator to the broader issue of women’s lived experience of male abuse. It was as if an abhorrent but isolated incident of abduction and murder had become part of the female ‘narrative’.
Shifting the focus onto women’s lived experiences may appear to address the broader issue of male dysfunction but it can easily escalate into tribalism where violence is seen as innate to all men and must be reined in by strict curfews and re-education programmes.
The wording of this recent £50,000 per annum job advertisement for Head of Lived Experience at the mental health charity Mind even transforms the term into a professional attribute: ‘Candidates for this role will have a personal direct experience of mental health problems with substantial experience of integrating this experience into your day-to-day work to inform your values, communications and approach to lived experience and community leadership.’ Here, ‘lived experience’, however traumatic, is touted as a form of career currency to put on your CV – just as you would a degree.
Meanwhile many on the left are refusing to accept the Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities’ report which found that the UK is not institutionally racist. Sidiq Khan casually dismissed 264 pages of clearly worded, substantiated evidence, tweeting: ‘We need to acknowledge and listen to the lived experience of Black, Asian and minority ethnic people in our country, so we can take meaningful action to break down barriers and make our society more equal for everyone.’
An indignant Diane Abbott told Sky News: ‘This is people’s lived experience and it is as if this commission, which was set up by the Tories and by leading Tory advisers who don’t believe in institutional racism at all, is taking us back in the argument for racial justice, not taking us forward.’ In other words the report must have been falsified because the evidence simply didn’t compute with Diane’s rigidly constructed narrative that sees all BAME individuals as victims. How dare the report violate her ‘truth’.
This rush to delegitimise our shared humanity has spread to the creative world where authors are criticised for daring to imagine a life that isn’t their own and on matters of race where nobody can comment on issues affecting those of a different race because of a lack of ‘lived experience’. And it was ultimately what made Oprah Winfrey’s interview with Meghan Markle so one-sided. Oprah’s unspoken view seemed to be that the Duchess’s word was final and should not be questioned.
Having unshackled ourselves from our heritage of empiricism, we seem to be drifting away from the ancient Greek notion of thesis and antithesis where conflicting ideas were deliberately held up against each other. Now, the only required response when someone decides to share their ‘truth’ is to sit in silence and listen."

OP posts:
WhiteLily1 · 03/03/2025 12:07

ThisFluentBiscuit · 03/03/2025 10:40

No, you would not have experience of being depressed. You would have experience of living with someone who is depressed, or experience of caring for someone who is depressed. You would be experienced as a caregiver of someone with depression. But you would not have experience of being depressed if you had never had depression. Same as your husband would not have experience of being a caregiver for a depressed spouse if you had never had depression.

Ok. So the expression ‘lived experience of’ or ‘personal experience of’ clarifys that. Many people would say they had experience of something if they have second hand experience. You don’t seem to acknowledge that second hand experience counts as experience. And that is where your opinion and view differs from the vast majority of the population.

ThisFluentBiscuit · 03/03/2025 11:59

Looks like I'm not the first Mumsnetter to really hate this phrase!

www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4176958-the-phrase-lived-experience

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AshKeys · 03/03/2025 11:57

Scirocco · 03/03/2025 11:46

Only if they actually have a neurodevelopmental disorder/diagnosis to which the terms 'neurodiversity' and 'neurodivergence' apply. Schizophrenia is categorised elsewhere in diagnostic frameworks. Also, many people with diagnoses of schizophrenia or related conditions find the phrase "a schizophrenic" pejorative and prefer person-first language, ie "I'm a person with schizophrenia".

‘Neurodiversity’ applies to everyone. There is no agreed set of diagnoses to which ‘neurodivergent’ applies and certainly no definition that excludes schizophrenia.

ThisFluentBiscuit · 03/03/2025 11:56

ARealitycheck · 03/03/2025 11:54

I'm ambivalent towards the phrase. However, on social media I find it is used too often by people with no real support for their claims of some form of discrimination.

Yeah.

I don't know why I find it so irritating, but I really do. I think I've seen it once too often. It sounds so dumb it makes me want to scream.

OP posts:
ARealitycheck · 03/03/2025 11:54

I'm ambivalent towards the phrase. However, on social media I find it is used too often by people with no real support for their claims of some form of discrimination.

ThisFluentBiscuit · 03/03/2025 11:53

71% of members of the Medical Journalists Association think the phrase "lived experience" needs to be kicked off a cliff. And remember, most medical journalists are doctors or scientists.

https://mjauk.org/2024/10/02/poll-verdict-lived-experience-is-tautological/#:~:text=It's%20a%20phrase%20that's%20cropping,%2C%20by%20definition%20'lived'.

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AshKeys · 03/03/2025 11:48

ExIssues · 03/03/2025 11:17

I would say schizophrenia is a mental illness rather than a neuro diversity ... Neuro diversity normally means autism or ADHD? Not an expert though!

That is why I dislike ND so much. It purports to mean those with different ways of thinking but there is no typical way. The biggest reason for differences in thinking is age - a young child thinks differently from an adolescent, a young adult, a mid-life adult or elderly person and this is reflected in our brains. And yes schizophrenics have different (disordered) thinking for life. Even if we just look at specific conditions that affect thinking these include dyslexia, dyspraxia, dyscalculia, adhd, autism, FASD, genetic conditions such as Down’s, Edward’s, William’s, attachment disorders, learning disability, high IQ, sensory disorders (eg sight and hearing), cerebral palsy, acquired brain injuries, epilepsy, drugs, parasites such as toxoplasmosis…. And yet despite presenting ND as different ways of thinking, and some conditions being more common that adhd or autism, advocates with autism and ADHD take the weight lent by including all these as ND to claim to speak on behalf of all ND whilst advocating just for autism and adhd..

ThisFluentBiscuit · 03/03/2025 11:47

5128gap · 03/03/2025 11:39

You misunderstand me. I'm not suggesting you used the term tautology incorrectly, rather that it's unnecessary to keep repeating it. Anyone with even the meanest intellect following the thread will have been aware from your first post you dislike 'lived experience' because it a tautology. You made the point perfectly clearly and don't need to keep repeating yourself. You mentioned earlier that people who used lived experience may come across as 'dim' to 'a date' and that 'that matters'. My point is that you are also guilty of something less than ideal when it comes to self expression and as you believe 'that matters', I thought I'd mention it.

I don't know how else to express that it's a tautology, sorry. I repeat myself because lots of posters don't seem to get that it's grammatically wrong.

OP posts:
Scirocco · 03/03/2025 11:46

AshKeys · 03/03/2025 11:09

Or a schizophrenic could say ‘I have lived experience of neurodiversity’? (I dislike ‘neurodiversity’ as much as ‘lived experience’)

Edited

Only if they actually have a neurodevelopmental disorder/diagnosis to which the terms 'neurodiversity' and 'neurodivergence' apply. Schizophrenia is categorised elsewhere in diagnostic frameworks. Also, many people with diagnoses of schizophrenia or related conditions find the phrase "a schizophrenic" pejorative and prefer person-first language, ie "I'm a person with schizophrenia".

ThisFluentBiscuit · 03/03/2025 11:46

Come to think of it, I actually disagree with social work being an academic subject. Social work is a field job. Yes, there should obviously be training on how to deal with people who have x, y, or z issue, but I disagree with the way that social work has been made into an academic subject. It's a vocation. I had the misfortune to edit a master's social-work textbook once. It was for an American course. I've never seen such a load of incomprehensible twaddle.

Social work is - or should be - a vocational role that's mainly people based. Social workers should be out in the community, talking to people in need and getting services for them. For some unknown reason, in the last twenty years it's been made into a faux-academic subject. I'll always remember how awful that textbook was. There was no practical training in it at all.

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Jumpingthruhoops · 03/03/2025 11:44

Not true at at all. They are completely different things. So YABU.
Take something like, I dunno, addiction. Having the experience of knowing someone who's an addict and what impact this has had on their life, career, family and friends etc is completely different to actually BEING an addict yourself. That is a LIVED experience: you're able to comment on something from the inside, not just the outside.

5128gap · 03/03/2025 11:39

ThisFluentBiscuit · 03/03/2025 11:06

But the phrase under discussion falls into a specific and official category of bad grammar - that is, a tautology. There's only one word for that. I suppose you could also explain it as repetition, but that's not really what it is. You could call it a redundancy, but that's not right either.

Here's a redundancy:
9 a.m. in the morning.

Either "a.m." or "in the morning" is redundant, which means you have to pick one to lose and it doesn't matter which one.

"A perfect utopia" is a tautology because the idea of perfection is expressed in the concept of utopia.

The fact that I keep saying it's a tautology is because that is the only accurate word for this grammatical error. Nothing to do with a limited vocab or argument. Maybe in faux-academia it's acceptably faux-academic phrase, but to any well-trained brain, it's a tautology, and it's bad grammar.

You misunderstand me. I'm not suggesting you used the term tautology incorrectly, rather that it's unnecessary to keep repeating it. Anyone with even the meanest intellect following the thread will have been aware from your first post you dislike 'lived experience' because it a tautology. You made the point perfectly clearly and don't need to keep repeating yourself. You mentioned earlier that people who used lived experience may come across as 'dim' to 'a date' and that 'that matters'. My point is that you are also guilty of something less than ideal when it comes to self expression and as you believe 'that matters', I thought I'd mention it.

ThisFluentBiscuit · 03/03/2025 11:35

CraneBeak · 03/03/2025 11:34

Why though? It's loads more words. I have experience of [object] is a completely normal turn of phrase, only in certain circumstances do we need to clarify what type of experience.

By the way OP, have you heard of the term "embodied experience" before? If not, you might need a lie down after googling....

Edited

I have not heard that term. Oh my god. What fresh hell is this.

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FeetLikeFlippers · 03/03/2025 11:34

I’d never heard it until now but what a stupid phrase! I shall be sure to add it to my ever-growing list of language-related stuff that annoys the crap out of me…

CraneBeak · 03/03/2025 11:34

ThisFluentBiscuit · 03/03/2025 10:08

No, if it's second-hand experience, you would say just that.

Why though? It's loads more words. I have experience of [object] is a completely normal turn of phrase, only in certain circumstances do we need to clarify what type of experience.

By the way OP, have you heard of the term "embodied experience" before? If not, you might need a lie down after googling....

ThisFluentBiscuit · 03/03/2025 11:34

ExIssues · 03/03/2025 11:21

Not in that context, no. As people keep trying to explain, its use is in a particular context and yes it is annoying when people try to sound clever by using words or constructions in unnatural ways.

Lived experience of going on holiday is up there with "please contact myself" or "please contact my wife and I".

And as I keep trying to explain, no setting changes the fact that it's bad English.

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ThisFluentBiscuit · 03/03/2025 11:29

It seems that the phrase is useful in social care settings to emphasise the experiences of the vulnerable. It seems that just saying the person has experience of X bad thing isn't enough to get them what they need, which seems awful.

OK, "lived experience" can stay. 😂 But it needs to remain on its own side of the fence! It should not creep and crawl into lay vocabulary! 🤭

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ExIssues · 03/03/2025 11:26

AshKeys · 03/03/2025 11:05

So you are saying by using the phrase ‘lived experience’ it suggests more weight should be given to a statement that a direct statement of the experience? If so, that is exactly what people are objecting to.

Also, the reality is hardly anyone with a car chooses to use a bus on a regular basis. One person's experience doesn't change that. It would be interesting to ask that one person to see if there's anything that could be applied more widely, but chances are their situation is different to that of others who have a car and don't use the bus.

LillyPJ · 03/03/2025 11:22

Bumpitybumper · 03/03/2025 11:02

Because it doesn't communicate as clearly the fact that they are denying something that is happening to me in that moment. I am literally choosing to use a bus in the moment that you are insisting that nobody would ever do this! It's more powerful than just saying 'I own a car and choose to use the bus'.

'I am sitting on a bus right now' would be far more powerful than saying you have lived experience of it. The first is direct and unambiguous; the second is mealy mouthed and open to misinterpretation.

AshKeys · 03/03/2025 11:21

ThisFluentBiscuit · 03/03/2025 11:15

But why can't they say "I have experience of ND"? Or, if they want to emphasise their experience without resorting to bad grammar, they could say:

"I have lived with ND ever since I can remember."
"I have experience of severe ND."
"I experience ND on a permanent basis."
"In my experience, living with ND is really hard."

or ‘I am a schizophrenic’

‘neurodiversity’ is meaningless - it is a group description that includes absolutely everyone. ‘Neurodivergent’ is also meaningless as no one is ‘typical’.

ExIssues · 03/03/2025 11:21

ThisFluentBiscuit · 03/03/2025 11:17

You experienced a car crash.
You experienced being a witness to a car crash. (Or, you had the experience of being a witness to a car crash.)

No need for "lived experience."

If you said that you experienced a car crash, the listener would assume that you were in it. They wouldn't think that you only witnessed it because you didn't say that you had a lived experience of it.

Edited

Not in that context, no. As people keep trying to explain, its use is in a particular context and yes it is annoying when people try to sound clever by using words or constructions in unnatural ways.

Lived experience of going on holiday is up there with "please contact myself" or "please contact my wife and I".

ExIssues · 03/03/2025 11:17

AshKeys · 03/03/2025 11:09

Or a schizophrenic could say ‘I have lived experience of neurodiversity’? (I dislike ‘neurodiversity’ as much as ‘lived experience’)

Edited

I would say schizophrenia is a mental illness rather than a neuro diversity ... Neuro diversity normally means autism or ADHD? Not an expert though!

ThisFluentBiscuit · 03/03/2025 11:17

Whenalldoneandsaid · 03/03/2025 11:11

To me, lived experience means something you went through directly. Experience means something you witnessed.

You experienced a car crash.
You experienced being a witness to a car crash. (Or, you had the experience of being a witness to a car crash.)

No need for "lived experience."

If you said that you experienced a car crash, the listener would assume that you were in it. They wouldn't think that you only witnessed it because you didn't say that you had a lived experience of it.

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LillyPJ · 03/03/2025 11:15

5128gap · 03/03/2025 10:39

I'd rather hear the phrase 'lived experience' every day for the rest of my life than have to read "it's a tautology" one more time. Have you learned a new word OP?

What's wrong with the word 'tautology'? It's the perfect word for describing 'lived experience', 'burning fire', 'wet water' etc.

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