To think Britain should have nothing to do with this war

Trump’s thinking is making me reconsider World War 2

All Britain had to do was to avoid that terrible was to surrender to Hitler

Why on earth didn’t Churchill think of that ?

(From John Cleese)

I try not to be rude on these threads but I wish people were not so ignorant of history and politics.

To have this thread title given what we have witnessed in the last 24 hours is absolute ignorance at its worst!

Yes, if the US isn't leading then there's just no way to win.

.

TW war crimes

Currently, 18% of Ukraine is occupied by Russia which is the same land mass as 45% of the UK.

Imagine 45% of the UK being occupied by, let's say, France, who in this example do not recognise us as a sovereign country. Initially, they demand London capitulates and the government submits to French rule. Obviously, we won't, so they invade our borders and begin to systematically kill off towns and villages, they dig mass graves for the dead (and half dead), forcibly deport our children for adoption by French families (because we are Nazis) rape men and women, old and young, boys and girls, in front of their families, and video the removal of penises of POWs and sharing this on SM. They torture our pets, literally raze the city of Hull to the ground (equivalent to Mariupol in geographical size) and eventually occupy 45% of our land, whilst relentlessly bombing the other 55%, day after day, for three years. Thousands of civilians are killed, 70,000 soldiers dead, likely members of your family and friends.

For those who don't care about this current genocide happening on European soil (3.5 hrs away so closer than the Canaries, Greek Islands etc) let me appeal to your long term security...

I know this line is trotted out ad infinitum but it is the truth - Ukraine is fighting this war for Ukraine first, and Europe second. If Putin conquers Ukraine he will 100% invade the next country on his list. He desperately wants mother Russia to be restored to her rightful place, the most powerful empire in the world. So, whilst he might not want to take anything (much) beyond the Baltic nations, and the UK may remain physically in tact, our sovereignty would depend on the mercy of a monstrous predator with a huge nuclear arsenal, their borders now much closer to home. Make no mistake, we would become increasingly subjugated to Russia, not in the future, but in our lifetimes and most certainly in our children's lifetimes.

You might not want a fight, but they do.

Imagine Trump dressed in the same style as Zelenskyy, or maybe best not to...

Do you know what, I am really not any longer going to engage with posters who are clearly primary school level when it comes to global affairs and don’t even want to learn.

Us ‘spending money on ourselves’ by bloating the NHS and benefits is what has caused our military to be on the bones of its arse at a time when we most need it. If we had kept up 3-4%, we would have a well equipped military ready to deal with this threat. Instead we’re having to kow tow to Trump and beg everyone to make up, all while scrabbling around to look like we’re even a worthy participant at the table.

Ideas on how to do this ?

Except of course he has said he wants to reunify the Warsaw pact. The poles have started rearming and have said they won’t contribute troops to the defence of Ukraine because they need them to defend Poland. Estonia, Latvia and most of the Baltic states are sounding the alarm.

The reality is that we have a hostile US president and a hostile Russian dictator and now is the time for us to rearm and get ready for the next war. Chamberlain learned his lesson and we need to learn ours. Putin has made his ambitions clear and we need to take him at his word.

While at the same time substantially rebuilding our armed forces through full investment (not creative accounting) so that Putin and his proxies are dissuaded from attacking Europe.

It would be much better to secure 80% of Ukraine, rehabilitate Putin (painful as it might be) and have Russia as an unreliable ally, rather than create a Russo-China enemy.

It seems to have been forgotten that diplomacy is the art of the possible given constraints as opposed to imposing perfect morality regardless of the cost of getting there.

in addition, the U.K. shouldn’t be trying to be a great power. We aren’t. We should be a part of a European solution, at best equal to Germany and France, both in terms of money and military.

There is no reason for the U.K. to put a target on her back in isolation.

We don't have a choice in the matter. Capitualiting to Putin opens up all of Eastern Europe to Putin and he is not a friendly leader to live under.

My mum is from an EU country that borders Ukraine that was under the control of Soviet Union and has a house out there my parents spend much of the year in. Is that country safe if Putin gets Ukraine or a significant part of it? This is much closer to home than you think.

Russia is not omnipotent - for a start it is broke, but if Putin gets encouraged we could see him rolling into easier target former Soviet states that have valuable resources and building Russia's economic power again, and then looking to European states again.

100%. It's about natural resources, control over the region and countering NATO expansion.

Then maybe the great orange peace maker can ask his buddy Putin to get the fuck out of Ukraine.

That would be great. Instant peace

Educate yourself OP

Are you a Russian plant or just really naive?

Bit late now @Foodtimeisit. We've been part of it for 3 years.

Is that you, Neville Chamberlain?

How's your Russian, btw? I find the subjunctive an absolute bastard to conjugate.

War is completely to do with power and economics. If Ukraine falls to Russia then all of the wealth of Ukraines minerals and food production will go to Russia, which in turn will go to China. The CoL will only increase rapidly with inflation and the UK will be in a worse state than it is now. The global power of the west is very much in decline (just look at the economic outputs/trends of Western countries compared to BRICS countries). Ukraine very much matters from an economic point of view and if Trump does not support Ukraine then he will shoot himself in the foot. USA is an empire in decline (just look at the statistics) and they are not the powerful country they were back in the 50s. As someone from the UK you certainly should care about backing Ukraine.

By the way, going away whimpering 'please don't hurt me' because we're scared of Putin is not going to protect the UK. Anyone who knows Russians, especially Russian men will tell you they despise cowardice. We cannot ever show fear.

It wouldn't have mattered if Zelenskyy had kissed Trump's ring, this meeting was a set up because Trump knew he couldn't deliver a peace deal Putin would approve.

For diplomatic negotiations, you need both sides to play ball. Russia is not about 'negotiations'. Russia is about domination. They are not interested in 'negotiating' - they invaded a sovereign state! Do you think we should have negotiated with the Nazis after bleeding Dunkirk? Sadly only one side is needed for a war to start and to continue. The only choices are capitulation, victory or resistance. Negotiation is not one of them because negotiation requires good faith.

Quite. He's quite openly mapping our underwater infrastructure.

You think the cost of living crisis is bad now? Wait until we lose some pipelines and interconnectors.

This is a hostile force that has shown itself willing to kill on our soil. This is not "a quarrel in a faraway country between people of whom we know nothing."

Putin has been remarkably consistent in telling us who he is and what he plans to do, and then following through on it. I can't fathom the "it's just words, he wouldn't really invade the Baltics/Poland/other parts of the old empire" brigade. It's so totally inconsistent with his actual behaviour.

Borders are not the real issue here. It is the fall of democracy that we are fighting against.

You aren't going to get that unless Putin has a personality transplant and decides to give Ukraine their land back.

At present, Russia is offering nothing in the way of compromises.

So how will peace be achieved?

If you tell Ukraine they have to put up and shut up, the next thing that will happen is that China will invade Taiwan.

He was too direct. in this instance the tone needed was sycophancy and boot licking. He completely misread the room. Understandable as it was an awful place to have to go cap in hand. But that’s what it was going to take.

Do you think he should have signed a deal that didn't benefit Ukraine in anyway?

Trump and Vance were a disgrace.